Possible counterfeit Indian Head $2.5 US Gold Coins

flyingfoxfruits · February 3, 2020 8:04PM

hi there to all, i'm new to all of this, and have been amazed at the amount of counterfeit stuff out there, so thankful for PCGS, and paypal 6 month money back policy, LOL...

but would love some people's opinions on these coins i recently got...i wish the pics were better quality, i'm sure some won't suffice, but I figured it's worth a shot...they'll all get sent to PCGS for grading regardless!

Thanks in advance for any contribution to this discussion, counterfeit detection is a new obsession of mine, especially when it comes to US gold coins!!!

scubafuel · February 3, 2020 8:39PM

If it's fake it seems like a good one to me. What do you see that hints at counterfeit? I'd like to learn as well.

davewesen · February 3, 2020 9:15PM

Welcome to the boards. The gold dollars and quarter eagles were heavily counterfeited because the premium over melt at the time. Good ones are difficult to determine by pictures. The TPGs know die polish lines, die cracks and other characteristics that they use to determine authenticity. I hope things go well with your submission.

flyingfoxfruits · February 3, 2020 10:34PM

@scubafuel said:
If it's fake it seems like a good one to me. What do you see that hints at counterfeit? I'd like to learn as well.

thanks for you response, i'm just skeptical about everything now that i know there are sooooo many fakes! apparently there is a tool mark or imperfection that gets made in the dead center of the obverse side of the coin, but there is also a depression on the coin there too, so it's hard to tell if the depression i'm seeing on the 1926 coin is normal, or the dreaded mark i'm trying to avoid....lol...

flyingfoxfruits · February 3, 2020 10:37PM

@davewesen said:
Welcome to the boards. The gold dollars and quarter eagles were heavily counterfeited because the premium over melt at the time. Good ones are difficult to determine by pictures. The TPGs know die polish lines, die cracks and other characteristics that they use to determine authenticity. I hope things go well with your submission.

thank u so much! i recently submitted a 1914 S indian head $10 that i got for $785 on ebay as a raw coin, and it graded at MS 62! I just about wet my pants....now i'm hooked on this coin stuff, i like to get them raw, then get them graded...i like the gold indian heads a lot...but yes, i'm a newbie, and a total rookie, my taste should change as i mature...haha

PerryHall · February 4, 2020 1:55AM

Bill Fivaz wrote a book dedicated to detecting counterfeit gold coins. It's a good book and a good start in educating yourself. There are other older good books on this subject. Be very careful buying any raw gold coins off eBay.

MFeld · February 4, 2020 4:51AM

I can’t tell much from those pictures. However, the first obverse image of a 1915 makes the coin look semi-prooflike. If that appearance is accurate, it tells me that the coin probably has either been cleaned (or polished) or that it’s counterfeit.

Walkerguy21D · February 4, 2020 5:44AM

@PerryHall said:
Bill Fivaz wrote a book dedicated to detecting counterfeit gold coins. It's a good book and a good start in educating yourself. There are other older good books on this subject. Be very careful buying any raw gold coins off eBay.

Or just about anywhere else, for that matter.
Back in Ohio, there were two different auction houses that had coin auctions ~ once/month.
Counterfeit gold showed up regularly in both of them, and that was >20 years ago.

I also recall a story by Dave Bowers where he assembled a complete date and mm set of Indian quarter eagles, every one counterfeit, back in the early '70's.

Smudge · February 4, 2020 6:30AM

If you have to ask, you should avoid raw coins.

ricko · February 4, 2020 6:33AM

@flyingfoxfruits....Welcome aboard.... Good luck with your submission and please come back and tell us the results. I recommend Bill Fivaz book on counterfeit gold as mentioned above by @PerryHall. Cheers, RickO

jwitten · February 4, 2020 6:47AM

I believe both are genuine. The pictures of the 1926 are better, so I feel more confident about that one.

MrEureka · February 4, 2020 6:48AM

The images of the 26 are good enough to say it’s probably real. No opinion on the 15.

flyingfoxfruits · February 4, 2020 3:42PM

@Smudge said:
If you have to ask, you should avoid raw coins.

lol, i just got a 1914 S indian head $10 coin for $785, as raw coin, and got it graded at MS62....

sorry i asked a question....

Outhaul · February 4, 2020 3:48PM

Mongo approves of lightly cleaned gold Indians...

BUT!

Outhaul · February 4, 2020 3:48PM

Oh, and welcome to the forums.

...fresh meat

flyingfoxfruits · February 4, 2020 3:56PM

@Outhaul said:
Oh, and welcome to the forums.

...fresh meat

thank u sir, I love the trolls the most, but i'm just here to learn really...this is just a hobby for me haha

flyingfoxfruits · February 4, 2020 8:04PM

counterfeit 1926 indian head $10 purchased from ebay for $799....PCGS determined it's not authentic (some lines on the rim under the date on the obverse?)

paypal protected me up to 6 months, so i'm getting full refund and buying another one ASAP!!

Paypal protects buyers very well, but not sellers so much...lol

flyingfoxfruits · February 4, 2020 10:25PM

and check out this one, the fine lines that radiate outward in the field of the coin....does that indicate a counterfeit to you? this is just a pic from a listing i saw on ebay

davewesen · February 5, 2020 10:44AM

@flyingfoxfruits said:
counterfeit 1926 indian head $10 purchased from ebay for $799....PCGS determined it's not authentic (some lines on the rim under the date on the obverse?)

paypal protected me up to 6 months, so i'm getting full refund and buying another one ASAP!!

Paypal protects buyers very well, but not sellers so much...lol

so PAYPAL just takes the money from the seller? do you have to return gold, or is it just a half ounce gold steal?
ps the shadows around the first 3 stars suggest to me it has been cleaned or polished.

AUandAG · February 5, 2020 12:31PM

Try figuring out how to determine, or help determine, authenticity before you send to PCGS.
Weigh them and see if the weight is correct or extremely close.
Do a specific gravity test to see what is the composition as it related to gold. Here's a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_2vA1qO2fA
Measure the diameter for sure.

If all three of these pass muster then send them off for grading. If not, hmmmmmmm, return them.

bob

flyingfoxfruits · February 5, 2020 5:04PM

@AUandAG said:
Try figuring out how to determine, or help determine, authenticity before you send to PCGS.
Weigh them and see if the weight is correct or extremely close.
Do a specific gravity test to see what is the composition as it related to gold. Here's a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_2vA1qO2fA
Measure the diameter for sure.

If all three of these pass muster then send them off for grading. If not, hmmmmmmm, return them.

bob

thank u very much for info, i'm going to take a good look at them when they arrive, and if they pass muster, off to PCGS they go, and i will post grades here!!!!

flyingfoxfruits · February 5, 2020 5:07PM

@davewesen said:

@flyingfoxfruits said:
counterfeit 1926 indian head $10 purchased from ebay for $799....PCGS determined it's not authentic (some lines on the rim under the date on the obverse?)

paypal protected me up to 6 months, so i'm getting full refund and buying another one ASAP!!

Paypal protects buyers very well, but not sellers so much...lol

so PAYPAL just takes the money from the seller? do you have to return gold, or is it just a half ounce gold steal?
ps the shadows around the first 3 stars suggest to me it has been cleaned or polished.

u gotta send the coin back! or u don't get refunded...but luckily the seller was reputable, and would have given me a refund without filing a dispute, but i went ahead and filed a dispute, and escalated the case, which i wish i could have avoided, but the seller was out of town for the weekend and didn't respond for about 4 days, and I panicked, because there is a deadline to get things filed, and claimed....6 months is plenty of time though...paypal gives this much time for any counterfeit items...but ebay only gives you 30 days, which isn't enough time for me to submit the coins for grading (being that i can't tell which ones are counterfeit yet, they are too good! real gold, right weight!)

flyingfoxfruits · February 6, 2020 7:19PM

amazing how much different the 1915 coin i bought looks in person, u can't see any of that whitish halo it has in the photos i posted, the coins is exceptionally clean, the fields are beautiful, and unblemished, and the feathers in the headdress have high detail, i'm hopeful for this coin to get an MS grade...will post results ASAP...

matt_dac · February 8, 2020 12:59PM

It’s not worth the risk to buy raw gold in my opinion. It sounds like you got lucky with the no details 62 grade, but gold can be cleaned, fake, etc. and can easily be missed.

flyingfoxfruits · February 13, 2020 7:23PM

@matt_dac said:
It’s not worth the risk to buy raw gold in my opinion. It sounds like you got lucky with the no details 62 grade, but gold can be cleaned, fake, etc. and can easily be missed.

i tend to disagree, being i got a raw coin for $780, that graded at $3000 worth, and several coins i paid less than $250, are now worth $350-360 after grading...how can you argue with that?

BillDugan1959 · February 13, 2020 7:26PM

My friend who bets on the ponies always tells us about the winners. He only tells us about the winners.

jwitten · February 13, 2020 7:31PM

I mostly buy raw gold. Send a decent amount in to grade. I've scored a MS63 1914 $2 1/2, and three 1911-D weak D $2 1/2, all coins worth 4 figures, and all were bought for under $300 each! If you know what you are looking at, buying raw can be a good buy.

clarkbar04 · February 13, 2020 9:55PM

@flyingfoxfruits said:

@matt_dac said:
It’s not worth the risk to buy raw gold in my opinion. It sounds like you got lucky with the no details 62 grade, but gold can be cleaned, fake, etc. and can easily be missed.

i tend to disagree, being i got a raw coin for $780, that graded at $3000 worth, and several coins i paid less than $250, are now worth $350-360 after grading...how can you argue with that?

Maybe it’s because your post is asking us if coins are real or not and you just sent in a counterfeit, and “hoping” a coin is ms. Not really screaming of confidence if you ask me.

No offense but it sounds kinda like luck to me too.

mark_dak · February 13, 2020 10:22PM

@jwitten said:
I mostly buy raw gold. Send a decent amount in to grade. I've scored a MS63 1914 $2 1/2, and three 1911-D weak D $2 1/2, all coins worth 4 figures, and all were bought for under $300 each! If you know what you are looking at, buying raw can be a good buy.

This is a point I have made on other posts. Once someone has slabbed a coin, the submitter wrings out almost any possibility of future profit. On most gold, unless you have a coin residing in the top POP there's little likelihood of seeing profit. Your only hope resides in resubmissions and spending on adding stickers... also a gamble that your coin is seen as undergraded by a TPG service.

CoinHoarder · February 14, 2020 5:14AM

I admit that I have no idea if a gold coin is real, cleaned, or counterfeit.

That is why, I will not buy any pre 1933 gold coins that are not certified by PCGS.

Plus, it saves me the time and money that it takes to send the coin in for certification.

flyingfoxfruits · February 20, 2020 9:43PM

sent my two coins i initially posted on this thread 1915 and 1926 indian head quarter eagles, to PCGS to be graded today, will post results here...lol even if they're counterfeit or clean

flyingfoxfruits · February 21, 2020 1:39PM

@jwitten said:
I mostly buy raw gold. Send a decent amount in to grade. I've scored a MS63 1914 $2 1/2, and three 1911-D weak D $2 1/2, all coins worth 4 figures, and all were bought for under $300 each! If you know what you are looking at, buying raw can be a good buy.

yes i've done very well, but you must always buy coins as close to melt as possible, and snipe auctions on a tuesday afternoon...haha...and make sure seller is reputable...even if not, you will get a refund if they try to scam, paypal is great in terms of buy protection, not so much seller though....

i will let everyone know how my 1926 and 1915 coins grade, they are at PCGS now...i share pics on this thread initially..

robkool · February 22, 2020 2:02AM

I've also got lucky on raw gold coin purchases too. 100% success... I even scored on an early dated southern liberty quarter eagle purchased from a Canadian dealer on ebay for a few bucks over melt recently.

flyingfoxfruits · February 24, 2020 1:14AM

@BillDugan1959 said:
My friend who bets on the ponies always tells us about the winners. He only tells us about the winners.

the worst i did was pay $300 for a coin that was cleaned, but it's melt value is $200 today...and it does retain some numismatic value...i got two like this, and still that doesn't make a dent in the profits from getting my 1914 s graded at MS 62 paid 785, now worth about 3k on a good day, but i bet i'd get 2.2k now easy...

Jimnight · February 24, 2020 3:47AM

Vigilance is required when dealing with raw gold coins.

flyingfoxfruits · February 26, 2020 1:41PM

grading process is underway now, will post results and screenshot as soon as they come in, maybe a week or so?

flyingfoxfruits · March 4, 2020 11:03PM

ive only submitted coins once to pcgs, but the way i remember, when i got a counterfeit, they show that in the grade, before encapsulation...if i'm not mistaken?....all of the coins i submitted have gone to encapsulation, without being marked as counterfeit, so hopefully that means i'm over that hurdle...now just to see how they grade...any day now, i should be able to share screen shots....stay tuned...

davewesen · March 4, 2020 11:31PM

they keep the submission together in the same box. coins may have a sticker on the flip saying 'questionable authenticity' or 'no grade - can not determine authenticity' and box gets encapsulated except any of those, that stay in flip. good luck

clarkbar04 · March 5, 2020 9:24AM

I had a crossover submission go through "enscapulation" for 3 days and it didn't cross so I don't think that means anything.

derryb · March 5, 2020 9:36AM

heavily counterfeited coin series, many with real gold.

flyingfoxfruits · March 6, 2020 11:09AM

got the grades, the 1915 was XF (cleaned) so i lost a bit on that one, being I paid $297, but the other coin 1926 (2.5) graded at MS63....so i can't complain,i only paid $299 for that one too....now it's value is bumped up significantly, and the way gold prices are rising with coronavirus fears, i can't go wrong, even with the cleaned coin, i overpaid for...it will hold its value over time, and exceed what I've paid. I will post pics of coins in holders when they get here.

flyingfoxfruits · March 6, 2020 3:00PM

@davewesen said:
they keep the submission together in the same box. coins may have a sticker on the flip saying 'questionable authenticity' or 'no grade - can not determine authenticity' and box gets encapsulated except any of those, that stay in flip. good luck

yes i submitted a coin for my friend and it was a counterfeit 10 indian head, i think 1926...and it didn't show up until grades posted...so the post i made earlier was totally wrong, they wait to tell you until the final grade and qa has passed, if u got a counterfeit...

Possible counterfeit Indian Head $2.5 US Gold Coins

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