Regulation in the coin business.

sellitstore · February 11, 2020 8:09AM

Increasing or decreasing? Good or bad?

Please read and tell me your thoughts.

https://numismaticnews.net/article/wayfair-tax-nightmare-comes-to-light-for-coin-dealers

skier07 · February 11, 2020 8:32AM

Link is not working

TurtleCat · February 11, 2020 8:41AM

Here’s a proper link:

https://www.numismaticnews.net/article/wayfair-tax-nightmare-comes-to-light-for-coin-dealers

BAJJERFAN · February 11, 2020 8:52AM

Sell on eBay where they collect the tax or sell only in those states that don't tax bullion or collectible coins.

Why isn't coin grading taxed? If I pay someone to change the oil in my truck engine and I supply the oil and filter I still have to pay ST on their labor.

jmlanzaf · February 11, 2020 9:04AM

I'm not sure I'd call that "regulation in the coin business". It's retail sales in general. The only added issue for coin dealers is that some states have exemptions for bullion and some states have exemptions for coins.

ricko · February 11, 2020 9:13AM

This says it all......Cheers, RickO
Author Unknown

Tax his land, tax his wage,
Tax his bed in which he lays.
Tax his tractor, tax his mule,
Teach him taxes is the rule.

Tax his cow, tax his goat,
Tax his pants, tax his coat.
Tax his ties, tax his shirts,
Tax his work, tax his dirt.

Tax his chew, tax his smoke,
Teach him taxes are no joke.
Tax his car, tax his grass,
Tax the roads he must pass.

Tax his food, tax his drink,
Tax him if he tries to think.
Tax his sodas, tax his beers,
If he cries, tax his tears.

Tax his bills, tax his gas,
Tax his notes, tax his cash.
Tax him good and let him know
That after taxes, he has no dough.

If he hollers, tax him more,
Tax him until he’s good and sore.
Tax his coffin, tax his grave,
Tax the sod in which he lays.

Put these words upon his tomb,
"Taxes drove me to my doom!"
And when he’s gone, we won’t relax,
We’ll still be after the inheritance tax.

dorancoins · February 11, 2020 9:21AM

@ricko said:
This says it all......Cheers, RickO
Author Unknown

Tax his land, tax his wage,
Tax his bed in which he lays.
Tax his tractor, tax his mule,
Teach him taxes is the rule.

Tax his cow, tax his goat,
Tax his pants, tax his coat.
Tax his ties, tax his shirts,
Tax his work, tax his dirt.

Tax his chew, tax his smoke,
Teach him taxes are no joke.
Tax his car, tax his grass,
Tax the roads he must pass.

Tax his food, tax his drink,
Tax him if he tries to think.
Tax his sodas, tax his beers,
If he cries, tax his tears.

Tax his bills, tax his gas,
Tax his notes, tax his cash.
Tax him good and let him know
That after taxes, he has no dough.

If he hollers, tax him more,
Tax him until he’s good and sore.
Tax his coffin, tax his grave,
Tax the sod in which he lays.

Put these words upon his tomb,
"Taxes drove me to my doom!"
And when he’s gone, we won’t relax,
We’ll still be after the inheritance tax.

Sound like the shenanigans that is going on here in Illinois under the current leadership.

Greeniejr · February 11, 2020 10:10AM

@BAJJERFAN said:
Sell on eBay where they collect the tax or sell only in those states that don't tax bullion or collectible coins.

Why isn't coin grading taxed? If I pay someone to change the oil in my truck engine and I supply the oil and filter I still have to pay ST on their labor.

You are absolutely right. The tax collection is on goods "AND SERVICES". Luckily at this point it is such a clusterpuck among the states that they haven't arrived there yet to tax services. Its pretty interesting because there is a huge variety of things that will be taxable that were not even thought of.

BAJJERFAN · February 11, 2020 10:20AM

@Greeniejr said:

@BAJJERFAN said:
Sell on eBay where they collect the tax or sell only in those states that don't tax bullion or collectible coins.

Why isn't coin grading taxed? If I pay someone to change the oil in my truck engine and I supply the oil and filter I still have to pay ST on their labor.

You are absolutely right. The tax collection is on goods "AND SERVICES". Luckily at this point it is such a clusterpuck among the states that they haven't arrived there yet to tax services. Its pretty interesting because there is a huge variety of things that will be taxable that were not even thought of.

Moving away will probably result in a surtax. A surtax on a sure tax. Hey that rhymes.

Greeniejr · February 11, 2020 10:22AM

I want to preface my comments that this is a non-partisan issue. Both sides generally agree that the Wayfair decision is highly problematic. This of course includes the Justices that ruled on both sides of the issue. In simple terms, both sides said there will be significant unintended consequences and that legislation is needed to get out of this situation.
This is not about regulation. Regulation is like what there is in Minnesota where people have to register with the state as a coin dealer, do background checks, pay fees and submit to oversight. This is about the collection of sales tax and only about the collection of sales tax. The coin industry is in a unique situation because we have full exemptions in so many states and partial exemptions in even more. Many coin dealers/collectors have no experience dealing with these taxes because if you are in an exempt state, you never had to pay or collect the taxes.
So where do we go from here? First off, the Industry Council for Tangible Assets is working hard on 2 projects. The first is to protect our existing sales tax exemptions and gaining new exemptions. I believe there are at least partial exemptions in 37 states which we have fought hard to secure. The more exemptions, the less interstate collection of sales tax effects us. That being said, states will start to see these exemptions and try to take them away when they can see they can collect more tax revenue. The second project is ensuring that when final legislation comes down fixing the decision, it is not horrible to us. ICTA's Executive Director is deeply connected in Washington and has the ears of the relevant players on both sides of the aisle on the issue. He also happens to be a die hard Numismatist, collector and scholar in Numismatic history. As with what happened in Minnesota, there can be horrible, and there can be bad. Bad might be the best possible.
I would urge all of you, collector and dealer alike to join ICTA. Dealers can join at $300+ and collectors at $25+. This is a giant issue and we need all the support possible https://www.ictaonline.org/membership

thebeav · February 11, 2020 10:26AM

In one of my past 'bachelor pads' the traffic used to be pretty heavy. Cars coming and going, all night card games. refrigerator door flying open, slamming shut......
I had to institute a 'shoe tax'. Helped me to gain a little bit of control.

Hydrant · February 11, 2020 10:29AM

@dorancoins said:

@ricko said:

Sound like the shenanigans that is going on here in Illinois under the current leadership.

I stopped doing business in Illinois years ago. You call it shenanigans. I call it institutionalized corruption. I should know. I live in Crapifornia.

BAJJERFAN · February 11, 2020 10:35AM

Sucks to be a dealer, but at least you don't have to recover the cost of paying ST. As a collector, I'd want to recover ST as a cost, but when one does pay it, one is already 7-10% in the hole.

dorancoins · February 11, 2020 10:40AM

@Hydrant said:

@dorancoins said:

@ricko said:

Sound like the shenanigans that is going on here in Illinois under the current leadership.

I stopped doing business in Illinois years ago. You call it shenanigans. I call it institutionalized corruption. I should know. I live in Crapifornia.

At the rate Illinois is going, it will be just like California. Good thing I am half an hour from the Indiana border.

ctf_error_coins · February 11, 2020 10:48AM

@dorancoins said:

@Hydrant said:

@dorancoins said:

@ricko said:

Sound like the shenanigans that is going on here in Illinois under the current leadership.

I stopped doing business in Illinois years ago. You call it shenanigans. I call it institutionalized corruption. I should know. I live in Crapifornia.

At the rate Illinois is going, it will be just like California. Good thing I am half an hour from the Indiana border.

Since California is the most awesome place on earth, are you saying that Illinois Is going to acquire an ocean, a desert, breathtaking mountains and valleys and the best Mexican food north of the border

dorancoins · February 12, 2020 7:46AM

@ErrorsOnCoins said:

@dorancoins said:

@Hydrant said:

@dorancoins said:

@ricko said:

Sound like the shenanigans that is going on here in Illinois under the current leadership.

I stopped doing business in Illinois years ago. You call it shenanigans. I call it institutionalized corruption. I should know. I live in Crapifornia.

At the rate Illinois is going, it will be just like California. Good thing I am half an hour from the Indiana border.

Since California is the most awesome place on earth, are you saying that Illinois Is going to acquire an ocean, a desert, breathtaking mountains and valleys and the best Mexican food north of the border

We got something like an ocean called Lake Michigan, but we have no mountains, just hills and valleys. As far as Mexican food - not a big fan.

Anyways, how many states have their Governors go to jail over corruption? Here in Illinois we had 4 so far, and the 5th one will come eventually.

For those who don't understand what living in Illinois is like - there are only two regions - Chicago and Downstate. I live in the Downstate part in a mainly rural area. Originally I was from a town an hour from Chicago, but got sick and tired of the crime and high taxes. Where I'm at now is cheaper but not like Indiana, which is even cheaper than that. Here in Illinois, Chicago calls the shots, and Downstate suffers with all of the crap being crammed down our throats, economically and socially.

This is Illinois from a life long resident.

privatecoin · February 12, 2020 8:32AM

@dorancoins said:

@ErrorsOnCoins said:

@dorancoins said:

@Hydrant said:

@dorancoins said:

@ricko said:

Sound like the shenanigans that is going on here in Illinois under the current leadership.

I stopped doing business in Illinois years ago. You call it shenanigans. I call it institutionalized corruption. I should know. I live in Crapifornia.

At the rate Illinois is going, it will be just like California. Good thing I am half an hour from the Indiana border.

Since California is the most awesome place on earth, are you saying that Illinois Is going to acquire an ocean, a desert, breathtaking mountains and valleys and the best Mexican food north of the border

We got something like an ocean called Lake Michigan, but we have no mountains, just hills and valleys. As far as Mexican food - not a big fan.

Anyways, how many states have their Governors go to jail over corruption? Here in Illinois we had 4 so far, and the 5th one will come eventually.

For those who don't understand what living in Illinois is like - there are only two regions - Chicago and Downstate. I live in the Downstate part in a mainly rural area. Originally I was from a town an hour from Chicago, but got sick and tired of the crime and high taxes. Where I'm at now is cheaper but not like Indiana, which is even cheaper than that. Here in Illinois, Chicago calls the shots, and Downstate suffers with all of the crap being crammed down our throats, economically and socially.

This is Illinois from a life long resident.

Yep, very similar here in Kansas.

ChrisH821 · February 12, 2020 10:42AM

@dorancoins said:

@ricko said:
This says it all......Cheers, RickO
Author Unknown

Tax his land, tax his wage,
Tax his bed in which he lays.
Tax his tractor, tax his mule,
Teach him taxes is the rule.

Tax his cow, tax his goat,
Tax his pants, tax his coat.
Tax his ties, tax his shirts,
Tax his work, tax his dirt.

Tax his chew, tax his smoke,
Teach him taxes are no joke.
Tax his car, tax his grass,
Tax the roads he must pass.

Tax his food, tax his drink,
Tax him if he tries to think.
Tax his sodas, tax his beers,
If he cries, tax his tears.

Tax his bills, tax his gas,
Tax his notes, tax his cash.
Tax him good and let him know
That after taxes, he has no dough.

If he hollers, tax him more,
Tax him until he’s good and sore.
Tax his coffin, tax his grave,
Tax the sod in which he lays.

Put these words upon his tomb,
"Taxes drove me to my doom!"
And when he’s gone, we won’t relax,
We’ll still be after the inheritance tax.

Sound like the shenanigans that is going on here in Illinois under the current leadership.

Just got my registration renewal notices for two cars. There is a 50% renewal fee increase this year, yes, fifty percent. $101 last year to $151 this year. Will Jesse White ever retire? I know I shouldn't say retire, he is voted in every 4 years... He's been SOS for 21 years.
I don't mind taxes as long as the funds are being used responsibly, but I don't think they are.

That reminds me, I should get an Illinois commem, they are nice.
I'm glad that we don't have coin/bullion tax here. I don't know how dealers in taxing states can deal with it.

sellitstore · February 13, 2020 11:37AM

Thanks all for your comments, and for fixing the link.

I know that this is about sales tax but it's more the regulation aspect that concerns me.

Before Wayfair, sales tax was simple-sales delivered within your state were taxable and those shipped outside were not. Keeping track of what needs to be paid to whom plus filing state income tax returns for certain states is going to be nearly impossible for me now. I suspect that tools to keep all of this straight will be developed but all of the additional filings and payments is still going to be a considerable additional burden.

The easy solution, as I see it, is to get rid of retail sales and just consign to several auction houses that will handle the retail and sales tax. I'm getting older and looking to cut back on the work, so I was moving this way anyway.

Your thoughts on the burden of work under the new sales tax laws and opinions on consigning to avoid this burden, would be most appreciated.

Greeniejr · February 13, 2020 1:11PM

@sellitstore said:
Thanks all for your comments, and for fixing the link.

I know that this is about sales tax but it's more the regulation aspect that concerns me.

Before Wayfair, sales tax was simple-sales delivered within your state were taxable and those shipped outside were not. Keeping track of what needs to be paid to whom plus filing state income tax returns for certain states is going to be nearly impossible for me now. I suspect that tools to keep all of this straight will be developed but all of the additional filings and payments is still going to be a considerable additional burden.

The easy solution, as I see it, is to get rid of retail sales and just consign to several auction houses that will handle the retail and sales tax. I'm getting older and looking to cut back on the work, so I was moving this way anyway.

Your thoughts on the burden of work under the new sales tax laws and opinions on consigning to avoid this burden, would be most appreciated.

Consigning coins will save you the hassle of having to figure out the taxes yourself but your proceeds will still suffer. All the auction companies have to charge it. Similar to buyer's premium, buyers will integrate the tax into their bids. Hammer could suffer by 5-10% as a result

hchcoin · February 13, 2020 1:38PM

@ErrorsOnCoins said:

@dorancoins said:

@Hydrant said:

@dorancoins said:

@ricko said:

Sound like the shenanigans that is going on here in Illinois under the current leadership.

I stopped doing business in Illinois years ago. You call it shenanigans. I call it institutionalized corruption. I should know. I live in Crapifornia.

At the rate Illinois is going, it will be just like California. Good thing I am half an hour from the Indiana border.

Since California is the most awesome place on earth, are you saying that Illinois Is going to acquire an ocean, a desert, breathtaking mountains and valleys and the best Mexican food north of the border

I don't think anyone disagrees that the geography, weather and landscape are beautiful. This example is what we call a straw man where I come from.

ctf_error_coins · February 13, 2020 2:26PM

@hchcoin said:

@ErrorsOnCoins said:

@dorancoins said:

@Hydrant said:

@dorancoins said:

@ricko said:

Sound like the shenanigans that is going on here in Illinois under the current leadership.

I stopped doing business in Illinois years ago. You call it shenanigans. I call it institutionalized corruption. I should know. I live in Crapifornia.

At the rate Illinois is going, it will be just like California. Good thing I am half an hour from the Indiana border.

Since California is the most awesome place on earth, are you saying that Illinois Is going to acquire an ocean, a desert, breathtaking mountains and valleys and the best Mexican food north of the border

I don't think anyone disagrees that the geography, weather and landscape are beautiful. This example is what we call a straw man where I come from.

An intentional misrepresentation? Well, what I said is all true.

I suppose the bashes of the great state of California has to do with our people, culture, politics, taxes, smugness, and such.

Well, we are not supposed to get into that on this coin forum so I won't except to say that All things considered, California is the most awesome place to live on earth.

PTVETTER · February 13, 2020 3:28PM

None of this bothers me
My business has and always will comply with the regulations!
However some part time and other small dealers don’t!
Welcome to the land of real business

amwldcoin · February 13, 2020 5:20PM

Demographics can and do turn a Rose into a thorn!

@ErrorsOnCoins said:

@hchcoin said:

@ErrorsOnCoins said:

@dorancoins said:

@Hydrant said:

@dorancoins said:

@ricko said:

Sound like the shenanigans that is going on here in Illinois under the current leadership.

I stopped doing business in Illinois years ago. You call it shenanigans. I call it institutionalized corruption. I should know. I live in Crapifornia.

At the rate Illinois is going, it will be just like California. Good thing I am half an hour from the Indiana border.

Since California is the most awesome place on earth, are you saying that Illinois Is going to acquire an ocean, a desert, breathtaking mountains and valleys and the best Mexican food north of the border

I don't think anyone disagrees that the geography, weather and landscape are beautiful. This example is what we call a straw man where I come from.

An intentional misrepresentation? Well, what I said is all true.

I suppose the bashes of the great state of California has to do with our people, culture, politics, taxes, smugness, and such.

Well, we are not supposed to get into that on this coin forum so I won't except to say that All things considered, California is the most awesome place to live on earth.

jmlanzaf · February 13, 2020 5:30PM

@PTVETTER said:
None of this bothers me
My business has and always will comply with the regulations!
However some part time and other small dealers don’t!
Welcome to the land of real business

Frankly, the coin show tax cheats really bug me. I hope the states crack down on them, but I doubt they will bother.

joeykoins · February 13, 2020 5:50PM

@ErrorsOnCoins said:
Since California is the most awesome place on earth...

Yeah, I too live in Illinois. I told my wife,"honey, I love you but if I weren't married, I'd definitely be living in California !" 🏖😎🥶

BillDugan1959 · February 13, 2020 5:57PM

The IL State automobile registration went from $108 p.a. to $158 p.a. It had been frozen for many years, when it should have been raised annually.

I suspect many cities in Southern California have a vehicle sticker that costs quite a bit, plus the State fee. That is not common outside of Cook and the collar counties.

CA is okay to visit for ten days every few years. I was in San Diego in February once. That was nice.

alefzero · February 13, 2020 8:20PM

@PTVETTER said:
None of this bothers me
My business has and always will comply with the regulations!
However some part time and other small dealers don’t!
Welcome to the land of real business

Yeah, it is hard enough in the business today. Our peers who undercut the rules, love or hate them, are undercutting us ultimately. They keep prices down so margins are too tight to make a buck after you pay the citizens (through the revenuer) their due.

BryceM · February 13, 2020 9:38PM

One of the best things about this country is that it's big enough to allow each of us to live our lives just about any way we want. Y'all can have the cities and traffic. Give me wide open spaces, country folk, a few wild critters and big mountains to get lost in. My paradise is another person's hell.

BAJJERFAN · February 13, 2020 10:00PM

@Greeniejr said:

@sellitstore said:
Thanks all for your comments, and for fixing the link.

I know that this is about sales tax but it's more the regulation aspect that concerns me.

Before Wayfair, sales tax was simple-sales delivered within your state were taxable and those shipped outside were not. Keeping track of what needs to be paid to whom plus filing state income tax returns for certain states is going to be nearly impossible for me now. I suspect that tools to keep all of this straight will be developed but all of the additional filings and payments is still going to be a considerable additional burden.

The easy solution, as I see it, is to get rid of retail sales and just consign to several auction houses that will handle the retail and sales tax. I'm getting older and looking to cut back on the work, so I was moving this way anyway.

Your thoughts on the burden of work under the new sales tax laws and opinions on consigning to avoid this burden, would be most appreciated.

Consigning coins will save you the hassle of having to figure out the taxes yourself but your proceeds will still suffer. All the auction companies have to charge it. Similar to buyer's premium, buyers will integrate the tax into their bids. Hammer could suffer by 5-10% as a result

It would cost at least that much or more to do it yourself

TwoSides2aCoin · February 13, 2020 10:47PM

@BAJJERFAN said:
Sucks to be a dealer, but at least you don't have to recover the cost of paying ST. As a collector, I'd want to recover ST as a cost, but when one does pay it, one is already 7-10% in the hole.

Finally: my first "you suck" award.

thefinn · February 14, 2020 5:21AM

@ErrorsOnCoins said:

@dorancoins said:

@Hydrant said:

@dorancoins said:

@ricko said:

Sound like the shenanigans that is going on here in Illinois under the current leadership.

I stopped doing business in Illinois years ago. You call it shenanigans. I call it institutionalized corruption. I should know. I live in Crapifornia.

At the rate Illinois is going, it will be just like California. Good thing I am half an hour from the Indiana border.

Since California is the most awesome place on earth, are you saying that Illinois Is going to acquire an ocean, a desert, breathtaking mountains and valleys and the best Mexican food north of the border

And half the homeless.

sellitstore · February 14, 2020 1:18PM

@BAJJERFAN said:

@Greeniejr said:

@sellitstore said:
Thanks all for your comments, and for fixing the link.

I know that this is about sales tax but it's more the regulation aspect that concerns me.

Before Wayfair, sales tax was simple-sales delivered within your state were taxable and those shipped outside were not. Keeping track of what needs to be paid to whom plus filing state income tax returns for certain states is going to be nearly impossible for me now. I suspect that tools to keep all of this straight will be developed but all of the additional filings and payments is still going to be a considerable additional burden.

The easy solution, as I see it, is to get rid of retail sales and just consign to several auction houses that will handle the retail and sales tax. I'm getting older and looking to cut back on the work, so I was moving this way anyway.

Your thoughts on the burden of work under the new sales tax laws and opinions on consigning to avoid this burden, would be most appreciated.

Consigning coins will save you the hassle of having to figure out the taxes yourself but your proceeds will still suffer. All the auction companies have to charge it. Similar to buyer's premium, buyers will integrate the tax into their bids. Hammer could suffer by 5-10% as a result

It would cost at least that much or more to do it yourself

@BAJJERFAN said:

@Greeniejr said:

@sellitstore said:
Thanks all for your comments, and for fixing the link.

I know that this is about sales tax but it's more the regulation aspect that concerns me.

Before Wayfair, sales tax was simple-sales delivered within your state were taxable and those shipped outside were not. Keeping track of what needs to be paid to whom plus filing state income tax returns for certain states is going to be nearly impossible for me now. I suspect that tools to keep all of this straight will be developed but all of the additional filings and payments is still going to be a considerable additional burden.

The easy solution, as I see it, is to get rid of retail sales and just consign to several auction houses that will handle the retail and sales tax. I'm getting older and looking to cut back on the work, so I was moving this way anyway.

Your thoughts on the burden of work under the new sales tax laws and opinions on consigning to avoid this burden, would be most appreciated.

Consigning coins will save you the hassle of having to figure out the taxes yourself but your proceeds will still suffer. All the auction companies have to charge it. Similar to buyer's premium, buyers will integrate the tax into their bids. Hammer could suffer by 5-10% as a result

It would cost at least that much or more to do it yourself

I agree. I value my time in dollars per hour, not cents per hour.

There is also the possibility that the auction will earn it's commission by realizing more even after commission than I could by retailing the items. There are several reasons why the top few auction companies account for such a large volume in numismatic transactions.

Regulation in the coin business.

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