Get Those Mint Sets Cut Up.
cladking
Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭✭
There are still millions of old mint sets and many old coins sitting in the original packaging from cut up mint sets. It is imperative that these coins are removed from this packaging before the coins are completely destroyed. Even very well stored sets are tarnishing in large numbers and percentages. 90% of the cu/ni and 80% ag in 1970 mint sets are affected. There is a layer of pvc plastic facing both sides of the coins in these sets.
I believe sets stored vertically tarnish more slowly but I have no long term samples to be sure.
The only way to stop the destruction is to remove the coins and soak them in 91% isopropyl or acetone. Coins that show no damage just need a brief soak but damaged coins may need a series of long soaks to look original again. Many of these are so bad they can't be saved and every year you wait means more coins lost forever.
Start with the worst dates '70, '69, '71, '68, '74, through '78. and then go back and get the '84, '88, '80, and '79. Then you probably should do all the rest. The '65, '72, and most of the '85 and later sets are in good shape now but this is unlikely to last.
You may as well process these coins while an Ike or a quarter still has some value because many coins simply can't be saved at all.
Good luck to everyone who has these in storage. Even bank safety deposit boxes are insufficient when they are left in mint plastic.
Comments
Over 50 years of collecting coins, including Mint issued products, I've never, NEVER, had one tarnish or go bad in Mint cello or Mint plastic.
Improper storage is the culprit.
bob
I need to check my '64 sets with the AH Kennedy's....Sure hope they are OK.... Thanks for the heads up... Cheers, RickO
Other people have said the same thing to me but I open safety deposit boxes in different banks and see the exact same thing. Maybe I picked bad banks.
Are your sets stored vertically in the original envelopes with the cards?
Vertical, stacked, piled, etc. All of the above. I must admit I never have used a bank vault for my storage. I won't depend on someone else's idea of proper coin storage so banks and I do not do vault business.
bob
I had always understood this plastic film to be Mylar. Is it verified that there is in fact PVC involved?
There are four layers. I believe the outer two are a kind of mylar but the inner two are PVC. These inner layers are very thin. I believe the inner ones are to facilitate bonding and to keep the compartments air-tight.
I used to buy 60-64 proof sets at melt and cut out the silvers for storage in rolls. Lost track of how many I must of cut out. Haven't bought a set in years.
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Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Yes cut them out! Hopefully they not already ruined.
I don't think those can be PVC. It doesn't have the right flexibility and I've rarely seen the characteristic green in those sets.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
PVC Burn tests (sometimes known as flame tests)can be performed as with other plastics, below is an excerpt from technique. My recall is that the plastic from these sets FAILED these tests (ie were NOT positive for PVC).
Perhaps someone would like to check as I no longer have lab access of any kind.
Using The Burn Test to Identify Plastic Materials
Here is a simplified guide that will help you to identify many common types of plastic materials using a flame source such as a cigarette lighter, torch, or bottled gas burner. Naturally, the burn test should be used only for tentative identification. Many complex plastic compounds require a rigorous spectral or destructive chemical analysis for a positive identification.
To initially determine whether a material is thermoplastic (meltable) or thermoset (non-meltable) type, heat a metal or glass stirring rod until it glows red or orange (to about 500°F / 260°C) and press it against the sample. If the sample softens, the material is a thermoplastic; if it does not, it's probably a thermoset.
Next, hold the sample to the edge of a flame until it ignites. If no flame is produced quickly, hold the sample in the flame for about 10 seconds. If the material burns, note the color of the flame, the nature of the smoke, the presence of soot in the air and whether, while burning, the sample drips.
Next, extinguish the flame and cautiously smell the fumes. To identify the odor, samples of known plastic samples for comparison can be most helpful. Finally, check your observations against the known characteristics of each plastic as shown in the table below. Once you have made a tentative identification, it is usually desirable to repeat the flame test once or twice to confirm the results of the original identification. Remember that additives may affect results. For example: flame retardants can mask the polymer material's normal flame & smoke burning characteristics.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I would guess that this applies to proof sets from the 70's and 80's also? From what I have seen they are not doing so well.
Would acetone take the haze off clad Coins? If someone has advice on these proof sets please let me know, educate me on how to stabilize these sets.
Thanks in advance.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
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I've run a simpler test on it and interpreted the results as PVC. I could be mistaken.
These layer of plastic rarely separate so getting a good sample of the thin inner layers is difficult.
Modern mint sets in safe deposit boxes???
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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I love tarnishing coins [toned]
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.No...the mint sets are in soft plastic while the proof sets are in hard plastic cases.
The issues you are seeing are different, most commonly from improper storage.
Yes, it happens.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
You would not have to separate the layers to test them. The Mint has supposedly never used PVC in their packaging. I can find zero evidence for PVC in the Mint sets.
Now, that said, the earlier MInt sets do not exactly have archival quality material. Removing the coins can't hurt. But raising a PVC alert seems questionable.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Maybe this is all a scheme to increase the value of mint sets in original packaging.
After all, without the packaging aren't most mint sets just a pile of well-preserved pocket change?
My point isn't that the sets have pvc. My point is that coins in the sets are going bad and the only way to save them of which I am aware is to remove and stabilize them.
I used to sit for hours going through hundreds of mint sets buying the choice ones and putting them in safety deposit boxes. If the sets weren't near perfect I'd cut out the Gems and put only those in.
Much of this work is wasted now and a lot more work is necessary to save and protect the coins that are still good.
In the long run there will be a premium on surviving sets but even then the premium will be based on the total value of the coins in the set. if they are all ruined this premium will be very low and the coins will be nearly worthless.
I guess if you feel lucky and have ideal storage environment then go for it.
Sam, I have always enjoyed your enthusiasm for Modern Mint products, but you seem to have moved from making general statements to making statements which are claimed as fact with assigned numbers. I would need some proof that the packaging contains PVC. also, Mint/Proof Sets appear to suffer from environmental damage due to the fact that they aren't airtight. Mint Sets are made airtight but often get tiny pinholes. past that, they will be safe.
I was just literally taking scissors to my mint sets. Have to find some pics
Have to pull out the rest of the coins now! Thanks @cladking !
Love Sam's insights and viewpoints but will keep my solitary 1970 mint set in its OGP. Nice small date
S penny and half.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Cladking. Thanks. At least you reminded me to check them. It's probably been at least 10 years since I last looked.
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I wasn't going to go there, but since someone else did...
I have to agree with the statement "you seem to have moved from making general statements to making statements which are claimed as fact with assigned numbers".
And, after sounding the alarm about two thin layers of PVC in every set, the OP then later states: "My point isn't that the sets have pvc." But that was exactly the premise of thread.
I appreciate any sort of advice or heads up, and this is a good reminder to review old sets that most of us have not looked at in years. But unless there is proven PVC contamination of the mylar packaging, I don't think the definitive-sounding claims made here are necessarily appropriate. (Can't we find a way to confirm with the mint what these things are made of?)
I know that a lot of proof sets suffer from improper storage so it is reasonable to assume that the mint sets stored beside them might also suffer from the same factors. Furthermore, as Keets pointed out, sometimes the Mylar gets pierced (sharp reeded edges seem to be a main culprit), and then air and humidity can enter the packaging.
For me, unless there is a proven contamination in the plastic, I am safer with my mint set coins in the government issued Mylar. There are too may other variables that would be introduced otherwise.
Also, have we seen actual PVC contamination on Mint set coins (green spots, oily goo, etc.)? What is mentioned above seems to be "tarnish", which I consider to be something else entirely.
Hey Siri remind me in 2 hours to run by the bank and check granddads old mint sets for the nasty
I agree with the bit about the cracks in the mylar. It is in fact quite brittle by its nature, and PVC is the "plasticizer" that gives pliability. Living on the East Coast, there are certainly more humidity problems than Arizona, but less than Florida or many places in Hawaii.
In short, IMO, it is defects in the mylar such as cracks or even pinpoint apertures that let moisture, humidity and contaminants in....
Well, just Love coins, period.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.I quoted Keets but this post is intended as a reply to a few individuals.
All I can do is to extrapolate from what i actually see. There are thin layers that are very soft inside at least half a dozen mint sets I've seen over the years. As a rule these exhibited evidence of poor storage. The soft plastic burns the color of pvc but so do many other things too. I can't state categorically from the evidence I have that any US mint set has pvc or even that the few I've seen were necessarily genuine but I do have extensive experience with original mint sets.
Most of my 1970 mint sets have a horrible haze on them that is readily removed and the coins tend to be sticky. This "haze" penetrates the surface after about tens years and is not removable by any means of which I'm familiar. I often see the exact same thing in dealer inventories so I know it isn't limited to the sets I have in safety deposit boxes. Based on what I actually see most sets are affected with many of them being beyond repair.
The longer and darker the tarnish the less likely it can be removed. I rarely see perfect 1968 cents any longer because those in mint sets typically have huge carbon spots on both sides and even the 5% that aren't bad have small carbon spots.
It's not impossible to accidently step into a vacuum and it's far more likely I just happen to own every bad set ever made by the mint. But odds are good there are a lot of really bad sets out there and those that aren't bad yet are going to go bad.
The tarnish starts as an easily removed haze. But a very few can't be fixed even at this stage and the services usually don't grade them with mint set haze unless it's pretty light.
As far as I can tell this affects every set and pin holes are irrelevant. Indeed, a little attractive (or ugly) toning around pin holes is quite common. As a rule almost every compartment is "air-tight" but of course air and gasses do penetrate most substances give sufficient time. The rate of transfer is very low but in time it adds up.
If someone's mint set(s) look fine then there's no point in removing the coins. But at the first sign of haze i would suggest action or the coins may be permanently lost to collectors.
I've got a 1970 set with a superb Gem PL half and a '70-S sm dt in incredible condition. It was so nice I stored them together. It'll turn up soon and the cent will be ruined and odds are good the half will as well. I got it in ~'76 at the height of the market so it will be a huge (%age) loss instead of a huge profit.
Maybe so, however in 50 years the penny is still red and the half a decent 65ish.
Well, just Love coins, period.
If you cut the set open, it loses it’s identity. I have had many of my sets from the year they were issued, and have noticed no serious problems. Of course, I don’t look at them for years at a time. If you take them out of the sets, in most cases, you have nothing but spending change. I quit buying non-silver mint and proof sets around 2006. They take up way to much space, and in most cases have little to no value.
This is what I was thinking. What am I going to do, put them all in flips?
This is very true for many dates of mint sets. Once they are removed they lose the bulk of their value.
But most of the dates that lose a lot in the CURRENT MARKET are dates that don't need to be cut up very badly. Most of the dates that are problematical are dates that actually GAIN value when they are cut up. For instance the current wholesale on a '75 set is $4.25
But the coins are worth WHOLESALE 7c for the pennies, 12c for the nickels, 30c for the dimes, 90c for the quarters, $1.80 for the halfs, $2 for the Denver Ike and $4 for the Philly Ike. This is a total of $9.15; more than twice as much.
A lot of the coins in these sets won't wholesale because they are substandard or already tarnished (especially the Philly Ike). But as nice choice set can be wholesaled for far more than the retail cost.
I'm not as much suggesting people destroy mint sets as I am suggesting that if steps aren't taken over the next several years that more and more of these sets will be destroyed by tarnish. Of course there are ramifications to the widespread destruction of the few remaining sets. I understand that once a set is taken apart that unless the coins are put into a collection there is a much greater chance of the coins being destroyed through intent rather than neglect. Nobody is going to run a 1975-D dime down to the corner coin shop to test if the 25c Redbook price is legit. They're just going to spend it. I'm not suggesting these sets get destroyed because it will make good surviving sets potentially more valuable (it certainly will in the long run). I'm merely saying that mint sets are virtually the sole source of most moderns and if we allow vast numbers to tarnish then future collectors will miss the chance to collect nice pristine examples of modern coinage.
If I didn't care about mint sets, the coins, and future collectors I'd simply hold my tongue. I've been saying this for years that the coins need to be stabilized but this is the first time I dedicated a thread to it.
I'd certainly be interested in hearing what other collectors are finding in these sets. When you check them DON'T use LED or fluorescent lighting because this tarnish is actually attractive under this kind of lighting. Use incandescent. It can be attractive under this lighting as well but this tarnish is progressive and WILL NOT stay attractive. It becomes darker and darker until every coin looks like an MS-70 under ugly tarnish. Also check those one cent coins for carbon spots; especially the 1968. Are there any unaffected sets out there?
I don't think anyone has mentioned it here, but many bank vaults are humidified. Many/most people use SDBs to store papers, and paper needs humidity. The coins I store there are slabbed, in boxes and the boxes are sealed with tape.
Around here they humidify in the winter. Humidity is kept in a range at most commercial buildings.
So nobody has found any hazed and tarnished sets!?
It seems pretty strange that virtually every single '68-D half is hazed, all '68-P cents have carbon spots, and the vast majority of clads in '68 mint sets are tarnished and this affects only my coins.
And the ones I see in coin shops.
Where in the country do you reside? Just curious. I'm in the Mojave Desert (Las Vegas) where we rarely have humidity.
bob
NW Indiana.
In the summer the dewpoint is sometimes higher than indoor temperature and in winter the air is extremely dry when heated to 70 degrees. It's always humid when it's warm in the summer. Temperature varies between -26 and +105.
Maybe your glasses are dirty?
“So nobody has found any hazed and tarnished sets!?”
The early Mint sets these days, overall, are a disaster, especially the ones from 1968-1971.
Wondercoin
One of the worst coins is the '68-P dimes.
In my experience more than 99% of sets or cut out dimes that were poorly stored are badly tarnished. The few that aren't are also tarnished. Only about 20% of these can be saved.
Of the well stored sets about 75% are badly tarnished and a few are OK. About 60% of these can be saved.
"68 dimes aren't terribly "important" because a couple hundred thousand were set aside in rolls and most of these should be pristine unless they are in paper in a bad environment. People set these aside because they represent the return of normal dating and mint marks. Roll coins tend to be very scruffy and made from poor dies.
There were once lots of really nice Gems in mint sets. Only about half of the mint set coins were attractive but many of these were gemmy.
My question is how many Gems were pulled out over the years and protected? Lots of these were cut out but many of them were just dumped into circulation regardless of quality because there was no premium. There is still no premium on this date. Very few people have bothered to set them aside intentionally so how many were st aside inadvertently? These would be coins that were shoved into folders and albums and sold to "consumers" . Of course there are BU rolls of mint set coins in plastic and once in a while some dates will be put into paper to pass off as an "original roll". Most of these coins will be OK especially if they were assembled before about 1999.
I just imagine the day will come when the demand for nice coins will show that many moderns are scarce and then the tarnished mint set coins will start showing in circulation because there will be no demand for them and no demand for mint sets with bad coin. Indeed, I believe much of the reason for such low mint set prices is that so many of these are bad. '68-P dime rolls are cheap because there's no demand due to poor quality. The market for choice coins is suppressed due to low supply. It's a vicious circle.
I'm really curious what people are finding in these old mint sets. Are they all tarnished or are there lots and lots of pristine coins?
In addition to hunting for cherries in proof sets, I also look at mint sets from 1968 to the mid 1980s when I am at a local shop or a coin show. Curiosity causes me to look, hoping that I will stumble across a set with high quality coins. I am mostly disappointed, due to substantial numbers of low quality coins that were ugly the instant that they were struck, tarnishing and carbon spots.
On the rare occasion that I find a high quality coin I will usually buy the set for modest money, cut out the coin, set it aside and put it in a Dansco album or a flip.
Finding 1968 cents in mint sets that are untarnished, with no carbon spots is almost unheard of.
I cut them up put in 2x2. If really doggy junk coin (non silver) spend it. Ones keep in Cowans album pages. Many go to under $5 and under junk box. Some on non silver sets just take the halves and just spend the rest at McDonald’s or jack in Box unless some stand out coin.
I have a few sets that have that "hazed" tarnish. After coming across this thread I went through them, picked the 2 most affected sets and put them aside. One is an '84 and the other, if I remember correctly, an '80. These were the worst of them. I'm gonna dig into them this weekend when I have time and post some pics!
The better ones that do not go in for grading go into various Whitman and Wayte albums.
I don't worry too much about dates and Mintmarks.
Just find a hole and maybe they will tone in a decade and be worthy of slabbing.
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Ok. I'm bored and decided to pull a few out.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc