Options
Illegal coin doctoring
oldUScoins
Posts: 243 ✭✭✭✭
I’m curious - what type of activities that fall under “coin doctoring” are illegal?
0
Comments
Modified dates and mintmarks, e.g. fake "D" 1916-D dimes.
Coin doctoring is not illegal per se. In some cases where a coin is misrepresented while selling it without mentioning that it's been doctored is fraud which is illegal. An example would be skillfully filling a hole and expertly re-engraving the repair. Of course it depends on how you define coin doctoring. Some people consider coin dipping to remove tarnish to be coin doctoring while others consider it to be a standard practice.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This isn't coin doctoring. Adding or removing mintmarks or re-engraving dates to create a different coin is actually counterfeiting.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Yes, this is counterfeiting, but isn't it also doctoring? Doctors can add metal, so what's the difference between adding metal to build a full head and adding metal to add a mintmark? Seems like both would be doctoring but one is also counterfeiting.
Doctoring implies improving the appearance of a coin to increase its value and desirability. Coin repairs and adding colorful toning are examples of coin doctoring. Changing a coin to a totally different coin by removing or adding a mint mark or reengraving the coin to change it to a totally different coin is counterfeiting. Removing the arrows by the date of a Seated Liberty coin or changing a 1944-D cent to a 1914-D cent or removing the S mintmark from a 1928-S Peace dollar are examples.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
So it seems like a coin doctor and a coin counterfeiter can have exactly the same skills in terms of adding and moving metal. It just comes down to what they do with their skills then?
The PNG definition of “coin doctoring“ includes activities which are also “counterfeiting”.
See here: https://pngdealers.org/png-adopts-coin-doctoring-definition/
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It is illegal to alter a coin for fraudulent purposes.
A lot of room for grey steak in there but that's where it becomes illegal in theory.
Thanks for the PNG Doctoring definition Mark.
Here's the doctoring definition which includes "adding or removing mint marks", emphasis mine:
I think you must be caught up in some new attempt by some organization trying to cover a large range of coin alterations with a single term: "doctoring." The same thing has happened to the original definition of a Mint State coin. Today, AU coins are commonly considered to be Mint State. It is a sad state of affairs when the blind start trying to define something.
Counterfeiting and coin alterations have been applied strictly to different methods to make a coin or change its physical appearance INTO A DIFFERENT coin entirely. Repairs made to coins to alter their appearance are alterations of a different type and have their own name - "repairs."
Coin "doctoring" is something more modern. Although folks have been "doctoring" coins forever, it has only been a little over 30 years that the term was made popular by folks getting over on the TPGS with chemicals and mechanical treatments. The coin remained the same but the appearance of its surface was changed. Adding bands to a dime is NOT true coin doctoring; however, the more YN's who are told this nonsense the faster everything including counterfeiting will be included in that term!
Apparently, that organization is the PNG
The PNG has an official definition of doctoring. Can you reference a definition of doctoring to support your perspective?
@MFeld said: "The PNG definition of “coin doctoring“ includes activities which are also “counterfeiting”.
Well, looks like we have the culprits. This folly is as bad as the "geniuses" who combined the number of marks on a Mint State coin with the amount of friction wear in the ANA's Grading Guide to come up with the "Typical" or "Choice" qualifiers.
@Zoins said: "Apparently, that organization is the PNG.
The PNG has an official definition of doctoring. Can you reference a definition of doctoring to support your perspective?
I don't need to attack the ignorance of others. LOL< I was there - BEFORE PNG became "OFFICIALLY" interested.
News flash: A half-century ago I learned a very important lesson. A very large number of the most well-known and well-respected numismatists in this country didn't know SQUAT!* They couldn't agree on the grade of a coin, they couldn't authenticate coins, they couldn't detect cleaning, damage, etc. You cannot even imagine the disappointment and disbelief this caused. UNFORTUNATELY they run City Hall. - back then and today!
If those well-regarded, professional numismatists wish to "OFFICIALLY" define counterfeiting as coin doctoring, I have nothing at all to prove to anyone with a brain and a very tiny amount of numismatic knowledge.
Get some rest. I'm still getting over the 49ers loss! Still a great game!
Here is the wording of the definition as approved by the PNG Board of Directors and PNG member-dealers attending the meeting in the Chicago suburb of Schaumburg, Illinois on the eve of the Central States Numismatic Society convention.
Coin doctoring refers to the alteration of any portion of a coin, when that process includes any of the following:
1) Movement, addition to, or otherwise altering of metal, so that a coin appears to be in a better state of preservation, or more valuable than it otherwise would be. A few examples are plugging, whizzing, polishing, engraving, “lasering” and adding or removing mint marks.
2) Addition of any substance to a coin so that it appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring.
3) Intentional exposure of a coin to any chemicals, substances, or processes which impart toning, such that the coin appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. Naturally occurring toning imparted during long-term storage using established/traditional methods, such as coin albums, rolls, flips, or envelopes, does not constitute coin doctoring.
I don't see the word "Counterfeiting" in here at all.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
It doesn't say counterfeiting directly which is why Mark put it in quotes, however it does mention "adding or removing mint marks" which is generally considered a form of counterfeiting. The text is below with my emphasis:
The last dealings I had with the Secret Service was in 2003, I had arrested two people that were part of a ring passing Counterfeit $20 bills . The two I had played a minor part in the ring and the Secret Service asked that we charge them at the state level on the charge of Criminal Impersonation, the statue covered a lot more than just identity impersonation. That was in Tennessee, Most states have similar laws.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
What is Criminal Impersonation? Why did you not charge them with something related to the counterfeit bills, or was it related?
While several of us, including myself, have been calling added mint marks "counterfeiting" here, I'm wondering if that may not be technically accurate. Adding a mint mark may be a violation of the Hobby Protection Act but I'm not sure it would actually qualify as a counterfeit under US law, as the coin is technically a US coin.
Counterfeiting and artificial toning are two different things.
Agree. Coin doctoring and counterfeiting are two different things.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
But what about counterfeiting and adding/removing mint marks, which is part of the PNG’s doctoring definition?
I apologize if altering a coin, by adding or removing a mintmark, altering the date, etc., is not considered to be “counterfeiting”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Zoins
Removing metal to alter a coin in my opinion is like counterfeiting.
It's criminal fraud, but it's probably not counterfeiting per se since the coin itself is still a U.S. coin and still worth face value. Forget 16-D dimes. If I am bored and scratch the D off a 2019-D quarter, I haven't done anything except clumsily "doctor" the coin's appearance. It is no more or less valuable than it was before.
This isn't illegal unless done for fraudulent purposes. You can modify dates and mintmarks for "fun" all you want. There's nothing illegal about scratching up a coin or gluing a letter onto it UNLESS you are attempting to pass it off as something it is not.
Here is the Federal definition of counterfeiting as applied to coins. Any other definition is opinion. Cheers, RickO
18 U.S. Code § 486.Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal
U.S. Code
Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title [1] or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
I saw that and was uncertain if it would apply to altered dates/mint marks, etc. The language wasn't nearly as detailed or verbose as I'd expected.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld ...I agree... However, as I reflected on that aspect, I considered that perhaps they were leaving it broadly defined to avoid minor divergences that would negate prosecution. Cheers, RickO
As I said, the statue covers a lot of things, I did not enumerate everything it covered, one of the subsections is Criminal Simulation. Counterfeit Currency is covered in this statue. The reason it was not prosecuted at the Federal level in this case is the cost and it would be adding more cases to the docket. At the time the feds were interested in the ones producing the fake bills, one was a prison guard, the other a prisoner in a State Prison. They were using a copy machine in the prison.
It is not unusual for cases to drop down to state level. They do it a lot with bank robberies.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
@Zoins Posted: "Removing metal to alter a coin in my opinion is LIKE counterfeiting."
Hummm, then upgrading the denomination of a piece of currency is also "like" counterfeiting. Drinking apple juice is like drinking "shine" too.
@MFeld wrote: "I apologize if altering a coin, by adding or removing a mintmark, altering the date, etc., is not considered to be “counterfeiting”.
You are correct and PNG is NOT! Altering a genuine coin in any way is not "Counterfeiting." It is an "alteration!"
"Coin doctoring" is an alteration. However, it never included changing the date or mint of a coin UNTIL the "Ex-Perts" who often couldn't spot an alteration or "chemically doctored" coin from an inch in front of their nose became involved.
Thanks Ricko.
I was incorrect and the PNG was correct. As far as I know, THEY did not state that "altering a genuine coin is counterfeiting." .
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said: "I was incorrect and the PNG was correct. As far as I know, THEY did not state that "altering a genuine coin is counterfeiting."
While that is true ("... THEY [PNG] did not state that altering a genuine coin is counterfeiting.") and this statement has been corrected in the discussion, you did post: "I apologize if altering a coin, by adding or removing a mintmark, altering the date, etc., is not considered to be “counterfeiting.”
Therefore You ARE correct that "adding or removing a mintmark, altering the date, etc., is not considered to be “counterfeiting" by any long-time professional authenticator. Now, if some "improperly trained", misinformed, "new" rookie authenticators are teaching differently....eventually adding a mintmark will be considered to be "coin doctoring!"
Oops!
It has already happened.
So if I take a roll of 1950 Jeffs, Philadelphia, and glue on a D mint mark, and then spend them, has a crime been committed?
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or brings into the United States, or possesses any such false, forged, or counterfeited coin, with intent to defraud any person, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
It was a 5 cent coin when it started, and was a 5 cent coin when done, and spent as a 5 cent coin, so no one was defrauded.
If someone else, down the road, later finds it, and then sells it as a 1950-D, has a crime been committed since they are ignorant of my adding a mint mark?
If I crank out a bunch of Fake Trade Dollars, is that a crime, as they were demonetized, and definitely not current:
Here is the Federal definition of counterfeiting as applied to coins. Any other definition is opinion. Cheers, RickO
18 U.S. Code § 486.Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal
U.S. Code
Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title [1] or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
Would a jury of 12 common people "think" in terms used by collectors?
Were Racketeer nickels (gold plated w/reeded edges) counterfeits? Just asking.
I believe trade dollars were made legal tender by the Coinage Act of 1965...
"All coins and currencies of the United States (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations), regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties and dues."