Playing Devil's Advocate: How do you know he didn't buy it off the picture on his phone, get the confirmation email and ONLY THEN realize what the listing said so he contacted you?
I'm not saying you had evil intent, but you opened yourself up to the confusion by using a photo of a 70.
Its possible but if that was true I would expect a message "just realized its a pr 69, can you cancel. Or question "is it pr69 or pr70"
the near instant message with the definitive "im expecting a pr70 like the photo" implies knowledge and intent.
could be youre right but it didnt sound right
We could probably go back and forth all day on this. The OP complaining (with a righteous tone nonetheless) about the orders being cancelled is dubious at best. He knew he was ripping them. The seller realized the large price gap and decided NOT to take it in the shorts. So? Move along; no need to post complaining abr out your failed rip.
Hello...OP here...you can take your BS and shove it...you want righteous, I'll give you righteous! What I did was pay anywhere from a 400% to 600% immediate PROFIT to 10 individuals claiming to have CONFIRMED merchandise...AND WHO FREELY ENTERED INTO LEGAL CONTRACTS TO SELL THAT MERCHANDISE. You know...which is the entire purpose of eBay and digital commerce!
What 9 of those disreputable scumbags did after the sales were completed and $$$ exchanged was indefensible...a violation of eBay's terms of use (as I've now had 6 of their accounts suspended...because yes, I did want to ruin their day)...and absolutely illegal when they then attempted to SELL MY PURCHASED PROPERTY TO ANOTHER SELLER!
So as somebody who has never reneged on a purchase or sale...you can take all your "all's fair" BS elsewhere!
Whoa. Anyways, you wanted to rip them but didn’t get to. That is all.
Oh yeah...I was "ripping" several of them just minutes after the Mint sellout by shelling out $500+/each; I bet I might have had a few takers from this board at that point in time too...because it was such a "ripoff"!
So...using your logic...if I go to the supermarket and purchase items on sale...after paying the cashier, a security guard should stop me at the door FOR RIPPING OFF THE STORE! OK got it...perfectly clear now...to absolutely nobody!
Plus...let's also flip this around...let's say the price dropped...I should be able to force a refund from the sellers, right...even those who stated that returns are not accepted? Maybe I'll try that next time!
While I believe that those who canceled their transactions acted unethically (and possibly illegally), I also believe that your analogy was a poor one. Presumably, the supermarket is informed in setting its sale pricing, whereas the Ebay sellers might have been uninformed. Additionally, there’s a big difference between a seller cancelling a transaction and a supermarket having a security guard stop a buyer at the door (rather than having a cashier simply cancel a sale).
Lastly, regardless of how much you might disagree with or be upset by other points of view, you’re doing yourself no favors by posting some of what you did - primarily in your previous post.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Would you argue that it is ethical for the buyer at $500 to return the coin the following week if the price DROPPED to $350?
A contract, freely entered into, should be binding and presents no ethical dilemma.
EXACTLY...A valid contract was entered...by a competent seller and a competent buyer...anything less is BREACH OF CONTRACT!
Better analogy...it's Black Friday...and exactly at midnight, you jump on the Walmart or Best Best website to purchase one of the biggest doorbusters...an 80-inch high res flatscreen for $500! You get in, check out, and receive an order confirmation.
However, the next door...or the next week...you receive an email from Walmart or Best Buy as follows:
"Sorry...we're cancelling your sale. Although we had the item in stock when you purchased it...WE'VE SUBSEQUENTLY DECIDED TO SELL IT TO SOMEONE ELSE FOR A HIGHER PRICE...so sorry."
Everyone would be good with that, right? Nobody would have any "righteous" indignation, right? It's all about maximizing profits...and to hell with contract law, right?
Ebay auctions are legal binding contracts. There is some leg work involved and depending on state laws (yours and theirs) you can simple file a suit with your local court and without a lawyer and at very little cost. You also are not required to be there in person but over the phone. If a judgement is granted on your behalf, a lien is placed against them or they must pay the awarded costs. I hope some of these scumbags get sued. I very well might be going after my seller.
One of the many problems with purchasing a pre-sale (when the seller does not have the item in hand and is awaiting it to get to him) is that the seller has more time to reconsider the sale in the face of rising prices. Such a delay in shipping by the seller, as learned by the OP, is not good for the buyer.
Regardless of all the "legal/contract" mumbo jumbo, a purchase on ebay is not yours until you have it in hand. This is another reality learned by those who had their orders for this item cancelled.
Seller dishonesty has different levels. At least the OP was refunded without a fight or a claim. The only thing lost was an opportunity to profit.
"Money does not care about speeches on morality. Capital asks whether the rules will remain the same tomorrow. With inflation, people assume price is the problem, and propose regulation—but price is simply the message." - Martin Armstrong
In my case the seller confirmed on the day of release he purchased 3 and will be shipping my coin. Technically so far I'm out a $700 profit. If I sent the coin in for grading, get a PCGS 70, and a few years from now a PF70 hits $3-10,000 then I'm out a lot.
I know someone who did the leg work on their own, he was the seller and the buyer backed out. He won easily in court and now has a lien against him, meaning the buyer can't purchase a car, home or anything else until the award is paid and with interest. For these looser sellers, I feel they should get the same action against them.
I know someone who did the leg work on their own, he was the seller and the buyer backed out. He won easily in court and now has a lien against him, meaning the buyer can't purchase a car, home or anything else until the award is paid and with interest. For these looser sellers, I feel they should get the same action against them.
A multi-state legal action is not as simple as you make it sound. Also, liens are placed on property which gives the claimant his award upon sale of the property.
"Money does not care about speeches on morality. Capital asks whether the rules will remain the same tomorrow. With inflation, people assume price is the problem, and propose regulation—but price is simply the message." - Martin Armstrong
Since I started all this trouble on this thread...at the end of this mess...I had 8 of 10 confirmed BIN orders cancelled up to 5 days after the purchase...all for confirmed Mint orders, no pre-sales...for a range of $300-$550 each.
And 4 of those disreputable punks then tried to resell the coin I had already paid for to another person...at which point I demanded that eBay suspend their accounts...just to ruin their day! Two even asked me "IF I WANTED TO PAY MORE!!!"
So yeah...I'd say eBay has a major problem here...and really shouldn't offer coins under these Wild West conditions.
@ccwNJ said:
In my case the seller confirmed on the day of release he purchased 3 and will be shipping my coin. Technically so far I'm out a $700 profit. If I sent the coin in for grading, get a PCGS 70, and a few years from now a PF70 hits $3-10,000 then I'm out a lot.
Your potential profit of $700 could easily become a loss when prices fall. This coin will not be the same as the 1995 W silver eagle. It will more likely follow the price path of other modern US Mint reverse proofs.
"Money does not care about speeches on morality. Capital asks whether the rules will remain the same tomorrow. With inflation, people assume price is the problem, and propose regulation—but price is simply the message." - Martin Armstrong
These situations sure bring out the worst in everyone. Personally, I think the flip game in this situation is very dubious. This isn't commerce and marking up a product a reasonable amount for resale. It's grabbing an item you don't want from someone who actually wants it.
I can't fathom grabbing a tickle-me Elmo from a parent who wants it for their child with the sole intent to flip it back for a huge profit. I don't see the difference in grabbing a coin from someone who actually wants it solely to resell it back to that person.
More of a concern to me is rampant shilling. I regularly see "auctions" rerun after the shilling did not bring the "right" price. Like the guy with the 200 year old safe hoard of coins....
@jmlanzaf said:
I know coin collectors feel privileged and believe the Mint should reserve the coins they want (but only the ones they want) for them and put them at the front of the line.
Even if they were somehow willing and able to do this (put coin collectors at the front of the line), there still wouldn't have been enough coins to go around. And there would still be complaints about the unfairness of it all from those who missed out.
@nags said:
These situations sure bring out the worst in everyone. Personally, I think the flip game in this situation is very dubious. This isn't commerce and marking up a product a reasonable amount for resale. It's grabbing an item you don't want from someone who actually wants it.
I can't fathom grabbing a tickle-me Elmo from a parent who wants it for their child with the sole intent to flip it back for a huge profit. I don't see the difference in grabbing a coin from someone who actually wants it solely to resell it back to that person.
You didn't "grab it" from a parent (or numismatist), you bought it on the open market for the purpose of reselling it. I know coin collectors feel privileged and believe the Mint should reserve the coins they want (but only the ones they want) for them and put them at the front of the line. But this was an open sale to anyone who wanted to buy one and managed to "win the lottery". The flipper is no less entitled to purchase the coin than you.
Tickle-me-Elmo was also for sale on the open market. You'd have no problem grabbing the Elmo from parents and children to flip? I'm not saying it's illegal, it certainly is not. I'm saying it's in poor taste. The flipper isn't adding any value, providing a service, or creating anything of value, they are just profiting off the work and demand created by someone else to the detriment of the folks who actually want the end product, or ticket, or whatever.
@nags said:
These situations sure bring out the worst in everyone. Personally, I think the flip game in this situation is very dubious. This isn't commerce and marking up a product a reasonable amount for resale. It's grabbing an item you don't want from someone who actually wants it.
I can't fathom grabbing a tickle-me Elmo from a parent who wants it for their child with the sole intent to flip it back for a huge profit. I don't see the difference in grabbing a coin from someone who actually wants it solely to resell it back to that person.
You didn't "grab it" from a parent (or numismatist), you bought it on the open market for the purpose of reselling it. I know coin collectors feel privileged and believe the Mint should reserve the coins they want (but only the ones they want) for them and put them at the front of the line. But this was an open sale to anyone who wanted to buy one and managed to "win the lottery". The flipper is no less entitled to purchase the coin than you.
Tickle-me-Elmo was also for sale on the open market. You'd have no problem grabbing the Elmo from parents and children to flip? I'm not saying it's illegal, it certainly is not. I'm saying it's in poor taste. The flipper isn't adding any value, providing a service, or creating anything of value, they are just profiting off the work and demand created by someone else to the detriment of the folks who actually want the end product, or ticket, or whatever.
100%
All Resellers that take merchandise off the market to later resell at higher prices to the end user in scenarios such as these are simply enriching themselves and not adding to society with what they did.
That said, it is 100% legal, no rules or laws were broken. This item was worth $400 - $500 at the time of the sale and was being sold for $65. So it's unfair to condemn flippers. If this was a limited run of critical medicine, sure it would be an ugly thing to see. But no one will die if their silver eagle collection is incomplete - and $450 in profit to the flipper is arguably more important to him than the joy of completing the set is to the collector...
Taking something off the shelf isn't the same thing as grabbing it out of the hands of someone who got there before you and had already taken it off the shelf themselves.
Bouncing this off an attorney friend, as the last law class I took was when Ford was President: Can I recover lost profits because the coin was not delivered due to the seller's breach?”—it seems likely that the answer is no; you bargained for a coin, not sales to customers so such lost profits would be considered consequential damages. not general damages. Therefore, you could recover such lost profits only if the contract actually provided for them.
Hadley v. Baxendale
Tractebel v. AEP Power, from the U.S. Court of Appeals, Second Circuit, decided in 2007.
You had a contract, put money down, seller broke the contract, money was refunded so that pretty well covers any actual damage you suffered.
I have not read all of ebay's contract law, too boring, but this is a standard clause in a contract:
Limitation on Damages. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained herein, neither party shall be liable to the other for any consequential damages, including damages for lost profits or loss of opportunity, suffered by the other party.
You MIGHT file for specific performance, ie, I bought a coin, did not receive the coin, I want the coin, so the seller is ordered to deliver the coin. This is most common when the asset does not move, ie, house sale.
I went through something like this several years ago, with the purchase of an exotic car. Contract was signed, deposit made, and then at time of delivery, information was relayed car had been sold to someone else, and deposit was returned.
Short version: Even though the $$ was significant, with a lot of time spent with an automotive contract law attorney, the case would have been not worth pursuing because, the car had moved. The specific performance would have been to have the car taken from the 2nd buyer and returned, but the car had been transported out of state. Therefore, there would have been 2 cases, 2 states, and in the 2nd state, the burden of proving the 2nd buyer had any knowledge of the 1st sale, and in effect, taking his property away from him would have been an expensive and steep hill.
But if you want, find an attorney, and pay for his / her opinion.
This thread is the perfect example of why I never get into the mint product hype. Greed on all sides, lots of folks upset at buyers and at sellers, everyone wants to make a quick buck, and the worst of human behavior comes out. Five years from now, the price of these things will probably be much lower, folks will lose money on the hype. Yikes I will pass. Just sayin' and sorry if I just messed with this thread, but, seriously?
I'm sorry...I just have to comment on those complaining about "flippers"...let me tell you a secret...coin collectors (and stock buyers for that matter) are all flippers...and it's the American way. Regardless if you're flipping after a day or after 50 years, you're hoping to make a profit over your initial investment.
But what's not American...or honest...or decent...is agreeing to sell an item for a price, accepting payment, and then voiding the sale to retroactively accept a better offer...not least because YOU NO LONGER OWN THE ITEM IN QUESTION! And it's just that simple. Person A offers to sell, Person B agrees to buy...payment is exchanged...and that's it!
Anything else is unethical at least...and likely illegal if it ever made it before a judge. Sorry if this reality melts any snowflakes out there.
I'm sorry...I just have to comment on those complaining about "flippers"...let me tell you a secret...coin collectors (and stock buyers for that matter) are all flippers...and it's the American way. Regardless if you're flipping after a day or after 50 years, you're hoping to make a profit over your initial investment.
But what's not American...or honest...or decent...is agreeing to sell an item for a price, accepting payment, and then voiding the sale to retroactively accept a better offer...not least because YOU NO LONGER OWN THE ITEM IN QUESTION! And it's just that simple. Person A offers to sell, Person B agrees to buy...payment is exchanged...and that's it!
Anything else is unethical at least...and likely illegal if it ever made it before a judge. Sorry if this reality melts any snowflakes out there.
I share your sentiments about sellers (or for that matter, buyer’s) reneging on transactions.
However, I think you’re way off base, stating that everyone who collect coins, are also “flippers”. The fact that many or most collectors hope to make a profit doesn’t make them “flippers”. And categorizing all collectors in that way certainly doesn’t elicit any sympathy regarding your situation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
RichR I think you are right on. Someone's word needs to be someone's word - in today's world, morals are just lost and that's the real problem. It's an agreement and what one should stand by.
I am a coin collector and have been for a long time. I enjoy collecting, looking at my collection, but also consider them an investment. Who knows if and when I'll sell or if I'll pass on to my family after I'm gone? Either way these ebay sellers who back out are scum imo. If I lost out on 200 coins, I'd for sure be going after them. Good luck to all.
I contacted eBay. They will investigate the seller but never disclose what they find or how they punish the seller. There's not even a way no to see the seller's name and address which was an option a few years ago.
"I'm sorry...I just have to comment on those complaining about "flippers"...let me tell you a secret...coin collectors (and stock buyers for that matter) are all flippers...and it's the American way. Regardless if you're flipping after a day or after 50 years, you're hoping to make a profit over your initial investment."
@derryb said:
One of the many problems with purchasing a pre-sale (when the seller does not have the item in hand and is awaiting it to get to him) is that the seller has more time to reconsider the sale in the face of rising prices. Such a delay in shipping by the seller, as learned by the OP, is not good for the buyer.
Regardless of all the "legal/contract" mumbo jumbo, a purchase on ebay is not yours until you have it in hand. This is another reality learned by those who had their orders for this item cancelled.
Seller dishonesty has different levels. At least the OP was refunded without a fight or a claim. The only thing lost was an opportunity to profit.
if it was cancelled and resold higher then there is an intent to defraud and I believe the statues of fraud would apply...
here is a common mans way the statues of fraud works..
I lied
I know I lied
you were harmed by my lie
and I will add one more - I profited from the lie
And yes getting a BS answer as to why you are not getting something when compounded on a lie that it is lost stolen, ect..and then reselling it at a higher price is fraud and creates a type of harm to the buyer.
if it was cancelled and resold higher then there is an intent to defraud and I believe the statues of fraud would apply...
here is a common mans way the statues of fraud works..
I lied
I know I lied
you were harmed by my lie
and I will add one more - I profited from the lie
And yes getting a BS answer as to why you are not getting something when compounded on a lie that it is lost stolen, ect..and then reselling it at a higher price is fraud and creates a type of harm to the buyer.
and the seller profited from the harm.
that is the actionable point to argue legally
Then go to court and argue the point. The court of forum opinion has no legal standing. All we can offer is sympathy.
"Money does not care about speeches on morality. Capital asks whether the rules will remain the same tomorrow. With inflation, people assume price is the problem, and propose regulation—but price is simply the message." - Martin Armstrong
I received my coin on the 26th. decided to offer to a local B&M that has been good to me in the past. Sent email and offered for $ 1,070. had 4 days off for Thanksgiving and forgot I sent email from work. Remembered on Saturday so I connected to my work computer and saw he replied he was interested. By then prices were in the $ 1,400 to $ 1,500 range. I called him at the store and said I would honor my original offer no problem. I still made a great profit. I was happy and he was happy.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
@HATTRICK said:
I received my coin on the 26th. decided to offer to a local B&M that has been good to me in the past. Sent email and offered for $ 1,070. had 4 days off for Thanksgiving and forgot I sent email from work. Remembered on Saturday so I connected to my work computer and saw he replied he was interested. By then prices were in the $ 1,400 to $ 1,500 range. I called him at the store and said I would honor my original offer no problem. I still made a great profit. I was happy and he was happy.
You, sir, are an honorable man.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I emailed the US mint his cancellation image that he claimed was a screen shot from his online account. The mint emailed back:
"Unfortunately, that is not an accurate cancellation notification from the United States Mint."
It very much appears that the seller cancelled my eBay order and then blatantly lied about the reason why. The seller also stated he never received any notification from the mint about the cancellation or a reason why.
Ironically enough the seller lives in Arizona.
@TroyW said:
In Arizona there recently was a court case where a person selling an expensive ring on ebay as buy it now reneged on the sale.
The buyer sued, won and got damages.
The case was handled as a straight breach of contract suit.
I have left negatives on my ebay cancels. One disputed saying it was damaged in transit. Yeah right. He gave no communication just a straight cancel. I asked for proof of the damage and mint return. Crickets.
PCGS PF70s are consistently selling for $2,795 on ebay. Maybe not bad for a $500 purchase. What if you had a chance of getting a signed COA being you bought a sealed box? Some sold alread for $14,000 or more, and one listing is at $150,000 for signed certification #2. Of course hypothetical but chance to happen.
Comments
Its possible but if that was true I would expect a message "just realized its a pr 69, can you cancel. Or question "is it pr69 or pr70"
the near instant message with the definitive "im expecting a pr70 like the photo" implies knowledge and intent.
could be youre right but it didnt sound right
Hello...OP here...you can take your BS and shove it...you want righteous, I'll give you righteous! What I did was pay anywhere from a 400% to 600% immediate PROFIT to 10 individuals claiming to have CONFIRMED merchandise...AND WHO FREELY ENTERED INTO LEGAL CONTRACTS TO SELL THAT MERCHANDISE. You know...which is the entire purpose of eBay and digital commerce!
What 9 of those disreputable scumbags did after the sales were completed and $$$ exchanged was indefensible...a violation of eBay's terms of use (as I've now had 6 of their accounts suspended...because yes, I did want to ruin their day)...and absolutely illegal when they then attempted to SELL MY PURCHASED PROPERTY TO ANOTHER SELLER!
So as somebody who has never reneged on a purchase or sale...you can take all your "all's fair" BS elsewhere!
Whoa. Anyways, you wanted to rip them but didn’t get to. That is all.
Oh yeah...I was "ripping" several of them just minutes after the Mint sellout by shelling out $500+/each; I bet I might have had a few takers from this board at that point in time too...because it was such a "ripoff"!
So...using your logic...if I go to the supermarket and purchase items on sale...after paying the cashier, a security guard should stop me at the door FOR RIPPING OFF THE STORE! OK got it...perfectly clear now...to absolutely nobody!
Plus...let's also flip this around...let's say the price dropped...I should be able to force a refund from the sellers, right...even those who stated that returns are not accepted? Maybe I'll try that next time!
While I believe that those who canceled their transactions acted unethically (and possibly illegally), I also believe that your analogy was a poor one. Presumably, the supermarket is informed in setting its sale pricing, whereas the Ebay sellers might have been uninformed. Additionally, there’s a big difference between a seller cancelling a transaction and a supermarket having a security guard stop a buyer at the door (rather than having a cashier simply cancel a sale).
Lastly, regardless of how much you might disagree with or be upset by other points of view, you’re doing yourself no favors by posting some of what you did - primarily in your previous post.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
EXACTLY...A valid contract was entered...by a competent seller and a competent buyer...anything less is BREACH OF CONTRACT!
Better analogy...it's Black Friday...and exactly at midnight, you jump on the Walmart or Best Best website to purchase one of the biggest doorbusters...an 80-inch high res flatscreen for $500! You get in, check out, and receive an order confirmation.
However, the next door...or the next week...you receive an email from Walmart or Best Buy as follows:
"Sorry...we're cancelling your sale. Although we had the item in stock when you purchased it...WE'VE SUBSEQUENTLY DECIDED TO SELL IT TO SOMEONE ELSE FOR A HIGHER PRICE...so sorry."
Everyone would be good with that, right? Nobody would have any "righteous" indignation, right? It's all about maximizing profits...and to hell with contract law, right?
Ebay auctions are legal binding contracts. There is some leg work involved and depending on state laws (yours and theirs) you can simple file a suit with your local court and without a lawyer and at very little cost. You also are not required to be there in person but over the phone. If a judgement is granted on your behalf, a lien is placed against them or they must pay the awarded costs. I hope some of these scumbags get sued. I very well might be going after my seller.
One of the many problems with purchasing a pre-sale (when the seller does not have the item in hand and is awaiting it to get to him) is that the seller has more time to reconsider the sale in the face of rising prices. Such a delay in shipping by the seller, as learned by the OP, is not good for the buyer.
Regardless of all the "legal/contract" mumbo jumbo, a purchase on ebay is not yours until you have it in hand. This is another reality learned by those who had their orders for this item cancelled.
Seller dishonesty has different levels. At least the OP was refunded without a fight or a claim. The only thing lost was an opportunity to profit.
"Money does not care about speeches on morality. Capital asks whether the rules will remain the same tomorrow. With inflation, people assume price is the problem, and propose regulation—but price is simply the message." - Martin Armstrong
In my case the seller confirmed on the day of release he purchased 3 and will be shipping my coin. Technically so far I'm out a $700 profit. If I sent the coin in for grading, get a PCGS 70, and a few years from now a PF70 hits $3-10,000 then I'm out a lot.
I know someone who did the leg work on their own, he was the seller and the buyer backed out. He won easily in court and now has a lien against him, meaning the buyer can't purchase a car, home or anything else until the award is paid and with interest. For these looser sellers, I feel they should get the same action against them.
A multi-state legal action is not as simple as you make it sound. Also, liens are placed on property which gives the claimant his award upon sale of the property.
"Money does not care about speeches on morality. Capital asks whether the rules will remain the same tomorrow. With inflation, people assume price is the problem, and propose regulation—but price is simply the message." - Martin Armstrong
Since I started all this trouble on this thread...at the end of this mess...I had 8 of 10 confirmed BIN orders cancelled up to 5 days after the purchase...all for confirmed Mint orders, no pre-sales...for a range of $300-$550 each.
And 4 of those disreputable punks then tried to resell the coin I had already paid for to another person...at which point I demanded that eBay suspend their accounts...just to ruin their day! Two even asked me "IF I WANTED TO PAY MORE!!!"
So yeah...I'd say eBay has a major problem here...and really shouldn't offer coins under these Wild West conditions.
Your potential profit of $700 could easily become a loss when prices fall. This coin will not be the same as the 1995 W silver eagle. It will more likely follow the price path of other modern US Mint reverse proofs.
"Money does not care about speeches on morality. Capital asks whether the rules will remain the same tomorrow. With inflation, people assume price is the problem, and propose regulation—but price is simply the message." - Martin Armstrong
These situations sure bring out the worst in everyone. Personally, I think the flip game in this situation is very dubious. This isn't commerce and marking up a product a reasonable amount for resale. It's grabbing an item you don't want from someone who actually wants it.
I can't fathom grabbing a tickle-me Elmo from a parent who wants it for their child with the sole intent to flip it back for a huge profit. I don't see the difference in grabbing a coin from someone who actually wants it solely to resell it back to that person.
More of a concern to me is rampant shilling. I regularly see "auctions" rerun after the shilling did not bring the "right" price. Like the guy with the 200 year old safe hoard of coins....
Even if they were somehow willing and able to do this (put coin collectors at the front of the line), there still wouldn't have been enough coins to go around. And there would still be complaints about the unfairness of it all from those who missed out.
Tickle-me-Elmo was also for sale on the open market. You'd have no problem grabbing the Elmo from parents and children to flip? I'm not saying it's illegal, it certainly is not. I'm saying it's in poor taste. The flipper isn't adding any value, providing a service, or creating anything of value, they are just profiting off the work and demand created by someone else to the detriment of the folks who actually want the end product, or ticket, or whatever.
100%
All Resellers that take merchandise off the market to later resell at higher prices to the end user in scenarios such as these are simply enriching themselves and not adding to society with what they did.
That said, it is 100% legal, no rules or laws were broken. This item was worth $400 - $500 at the time of the sale and was being sold for $65. So it's unfair to condemn flippers. If this was a limited run of critical medicine, sure it would be an ugly thing to see. But no one will die if their silver eagle collection is incomplete - and $450 in profit to the flipper is arguably more important to him than the joy of completing the set is to the collector...
Taking something off the shelf isn't the same thing as grabbing it out of the hands of someone who got there before you and had already taken it off the shelf themselves.
Just sayin'.
I talked to one guy who had 200 of these order cancelled. Insane.
I had one cancel this weekend. After he "gave me his word" several times I would get my coin. He relisted it the day he said it would be in. Unreal.
Bouncing this off an attorney friend, as the last law class I took was when Ford was President: Can I recover lost profits because the coin was not delivered due to the seller's breach?”—it seems likely that the answer is no; you bargained for a coin, not sales to customers so such lost profits would be considered consequential damages. not general damages. Therefore, you could recover such lost profits only if the contract actually provided for them.
Hadley v. Baxendale
Tractebel v. AEP Power, from the U.S. Court of Appeals, Second Circuit, decided in 2007.
You had a contract, put money down, seller broke the contract, money was refunded so that pretty well covers any actual damage you suffered.
I have not read all of ebay's contract law, too boring, but this is a standard clause in a contract:
Limitation on Damages. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained herein, neither party shall be liable to the other for any consequential damages, including damages for lost profits or loss of opportunity, suffered by the other party.
You MIGHT file for specific performance, ie, I bought a coin, did not receive the coin, I want the coin, so the seller is ordered to deliver the coin. This is most common when the asset does not move, ie, house sale.
I went through something like this several years ago, with the purchase of an exotic car. Contract was signed, deposit made, and then at time of delivery, information was relayed car had been sold to someone else, and deposit was returned.
Short version: Even though the $$ was significant, with a lot of time spent with an automotive contract law attorney, the case would have been not worth pursuing because, the car had moved. The specific performance would have been to have the car taken from the 2nd buyer and returned, but the car had been transported out of state. Therefore, there would have been 2 cases, 2 states, and in the 2nd state, the burden of proving the 2nd buyer had any knowledge of the 1st sale, and in effect, taking his property away from him would have been an expensive and steep hill.
But if you want, find an attorney, and pay for his / her opinion.
This thread is the perfect example of why I never get into the mint product hype. Greed on all sides, lots of folks upset at buyers and at sellers, everyone wants to make a quick buck, and the worst of human behavior comes out. Five years from now, the price of these things will probably be much lower, folks will lose money on the hype. Yikes I will pass. Just sayin' and sorry if I just messed with this thread, but, seriously?
I'm sorry...I just have to comment on those complaining about "flippers"...let me tell you a secret...coin collectors (and stock buyers for that matter) are all flippers...and it's the American way. Regardless if you're flipping after a day or after 50 years, you're hoping to make a profit over your initial investment.
But what's not American...or honest...or decent...is agreeing to sell an item for a price, accepting payment, and then voiding the sale to retroactively accept a better offer...not least because YOU NO LONGER OWN THE ITEM IN QUESTION! And it's just that simple. Person A offers to sell, Person B agrees to buy...payment is exchanged...and that's it!
Anything else is unethical at least...and likely illegal if it ever made it before a judge. Sorry if this reality melts any snowflakes out there.
.> @RichR said:
I share your sentiments about sellers (or for that matter, buyer’s) reneging on transactions.
However, I think you’re way off base, stating that everyone who collect coins, are also “flippers”. The fact that many or most collectors hope to make a profit doesn’t make them “flippers”. And categorizing all collectors in that way certainly doesn’t elicit any sympathy regarding your situation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
RichR I think you are right on. Someone's word needs to be someone's word - in today's world, morals are just lost and that's the real problem. It's an agreement and what one should stand by.
I am a coin collector and have been for a long time. I enjoy collecting, looking at my collection, but also consider them an investment. Who knows if and when I'll sell or if I'll pass on to my family after I'm gone? Either way these ebay sellers who back out are scum imo. If I lost out on 200 coins, I'd for sure be going after them. Good luck to all.
I contacted eBay. They will investigate the seller but never disclose what they find or how they punish the seller. There's not even a way no to see the seller's name and address which was an option a few years ago.
"I'm sorry...I just have to comment on those complaining about "flippers"...let me tell you a secret...coin collectors (and stock buyers for that matter) are all flippers...and it's the American way. Regardless if you're flipping after a day or after 50 years, you're hoping to make a profit over your initial investment."
Blah blah blah crying. . . blah blah blah spilt milk blah blah blah
And there it is...there's the state of discourse in America today.
In Arizona there recently was a court case where a person selling an expensive ring on ebay as buy it now reneged on the sale.
The buyer sued, won and got damages.
The case was handled as a straight breach of contract suit.
if it was cancelled and resold higher then there is an intent to defraud and I believe the statues of fraud would apply...
here is a common mans way the statues of fraud works..
I lied
I know I lied
you were harmed by my lie
and I will add one more - I profited from the lie
And yes getting a BS answer as to why you are not getting something when compounded on a lie that it is lost stolen, ect..and then reselling it at a higher price is fraud and creates a type of harm to the buyer.
and the seller profited from the harm.
that is the actionable point to argue legally
Then go to court and argue the point. The court of forum opinion has no legal standing. All we can offer is sympathy.
"Money does not care about speeches on morality. Capital asks whether the rules will remain the same tomorrow. With inflation, people assume price is the problem, and propose regulation—but price is simply the message." - Martin Armstrong
I received my coin on the 26th. decided to offer to a local B&M that has been good to me in the past. Sent email and offered for $ 1,070. had 4 days off for Thanksgiving and forgot I sent email from work. Remembered on Saturday so I connected to my work computer and saw he replied he was interested. By then prices were in the $ 1,400 to $ 1,500 range. I called him at the store and said I would honor my original offer no problem. I still made a great profit. I was happy and he was happy.
You, sir, are an honorable man.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Good man!
I emailed the US mint his cancellation image that he claimed was a screen shot from his online account. The mint emailed back:
"Unfortunately, that is not an accurate cancellation notification from the United States Mint."
It very much appears that the seller cancelled my eBay order and then blatantly lied about the reason why. The seller also stated he never received any notification from the mint about the cancellation or a reason why.
Ironically enough the seller lives in Arizona.
I have left negatives on my ebay cancels. One disputed saying it was damaged in transit. Yeah right. He gave no communication just a straight cancel. I asked for proof of the damage and mint return. Crickets.
PCGS PF70s are consistently selling for $2,795 on ebay. Maybe not bad for a $500 purchase. What if you had a chance of getting a signed COA being you bought a sealed box? Some sold alread for $14,000 or more, and one listing is at $150,000 for signed certification #2. Of course hypothetical but chance to happen.