BIN Order Cancellation,,,When Did This Become a Normal Thing???

RichR

OK...as everyone was frantically trying to place orders for the Enhanced Eagle yesterday, I was on eBay literally vacuuming up BIN CONFIRMED orders in the $250-$400 range...several containing screenshots of their Mint order confirmation pages.

Well...anywhere from 5-12 hours after Mint sales ended and the prices had spiked to over $500+...I had many of these sellers simply "cancel" their orders/BIN contracts with me and refunded my CC...with 1 special individual then even reposting the coin for sale at a higher price!

Meanwhile, I apparently have no option to leave feedback or ding their "perfect sales records".

WHEN DID THIS BECOME A THING? I've honored every eBay sale I've ever made...despite later price gains.

Do I have any options to smear these losers? My blood is literally boiling!

cheezhed

Slimy practice but allowed.

Wahoo554

That’s messed up. Maybe you can report to eBay directly?

ricko

That is unethical and morally wrong. Such sellers should have their ID posted so others can avoid them. Cheers, RickO

RichR

[Slimy practice but allowed.]

I'm being serious...is this true? This wasn't always the policy of eBay. You used to be open to negative feedback on up to account suspension for this crap.

MorganMan94

I had that issue with one of them I bought too. I could leave feedback if I used the app but not my desktop.

cameonut2011

It counts against their ratings. Go back, click BIN, don't pay for the items, and contact eBay and see what they do. If not happy at the higher price, tell them you had a change in heart too and don't complete the transaction. Two can play that game.

jmlanzaf

@RichR said:

[Slimy practice but allowed.]

I'm being serious...is this true? This wasn't always the policy of eBay. You used to be open to negative feedback on up to account suspension for this crap.

They ding the seller for a cancellation. But so many of those sellers were single digit folks, they won't care.

jmlanzaf

@RichR said:
OK...as everyone was frantically trying to place orders for the Enhanced Eagle yesterday, I was on eBay literally vacuuming up BIN CONFIRMED orders in the $250-$400 range...several containing screenshots of their Mint order confirmation pages.

Well...anywhere from 5-12 hours after Mint sales ended and the prices had spiked to over $500+...I had many of these sellers simply "cancel" their orders/BIN contracts with me and refunded my CC...with 1 special individual then even reposting the coin for sale at a higher price!

Meanwhile, I apparently have no option to leave feedback or ding their "perfect sales records".

WHEN DID THIS BECOME A THING? I've honored every eBay sale I've ever made...despite later price gains.

Do I have any options to smear these losers? My blood is literally boiling!

I would call eBay on the person who relisted.

U1chicago

It’s not right, but this does happen.

You can take solace in the fact that all of those people won’t have their PayPal fees refunded (maybe one of the few benefits of the new policy).

HATTRICK

Soo many ways to get burned on Ebay. This is why I have never purchased any coins on Ebay and will never, never, never buy on Ebay !!!!!!!!

bolivarshagnasty

That's slimier than what you were about to do with those same coins!

HATTRICK

@bolivarshagnasty said:
That's slimier than what you were about to do with those same coins!

+1 lol

taxmad

I was able to get a seller suspended a few months ago for cancelling a sale then relisting the same item at a higher price when bullion spiked. I was also able to leave negative feedback by going into the cancelled listings on the eBay app. In my feedback I explained what he did and he was not able to have it removed

jmlanzaf

@HATTRICK said:
Soo many ways to get burned on Ebay. This is why I have never purchased any coins on Ebay and will never, never, never buy on Ebay !!!!!!!!

Because no dealer has ever canceled a deal ever. People ,love to bash eBay when you really should be bashing this handful of individuals gaming the system.

jmlanzaf

@bolivarshagnasty said:
That's slimier than what you were about to do with those same coins!

Sometimes there are no heroes...

jmlanzaf

@U1chicago said:
It’s not right, but this does happen.

You can take solace in the fact that all of those people won’t have their PayPal fees refunded (maybe one of the few benefits of the new policy).

That's true. And if the OP doesn't have any moral compass, he could buy at the new price. Pay. Then ask for a cancellation and/or return the item after delivery and ding the seller a second time.

opportunity

@cheezhed said:
Slimy practice but allowed.

It is allowed, but only in the sense that jaywalking is allowed. It's a violation and is an enforceable legal contract. Of course, in this case, far from worth pursuing. I have a good friend that I went to high school with who is an attorney, and have already had this conversation with him in times past.

RichR

Just saying...i purposely avoided items listed as "presale" and instead paid a premium for "confirmed" orders...and was paying a 400+% premium minutes after initial issue. And it really annoyed me that the orders were cancelled late last night - after it became clear where the winds were blowing.

Conversely, if the prices had dropped below my agreed to BIN...I wold have still honored the deals.

So I was annoyed that no fewer than 5 separate sellers pulled the same BS...while only 3 have (so far) honored their deal.

DoubleEagle59

Bad sellers indeed.

Ebay is still the best place to transact business.

Yes, the fees have risen and rules have been increased, but no other place is better for me to buy and sell.

RichR

Agreed...i also have done well using eBay since at least 2001...and, until yesterday, only had two purchases cancelled...one for a valid reason...and the other for questionable reasons. But I managed to triple my lifetime fail rate IN A SINGLE DAY yesterday!

philographer

What % cancelled?

MilesWaits

Ask Wondercoin or other buyers of Mint issues from forum members how often the seller backs out or is MIA.

RichR

5 of 8...63%

MilesWaits

Ouch, tough business. Gotta have faith.

RichR

And now a follow-up,,,just got off the phone with a human at eBay...the most egregious scammer will have their accounts suspended for 60 days.

This came to a head about an hour ago when the eBay algorithm sent me an automated email...asking if I wanted to pay $600 for the exact coin for which a $300 BIN was cancelled by the seller yesterday...LITERALLY THE SAME COIN...right down to an image of the confirmed Mint invoice!

So that was my breaking point!

RichR

...now i feel a little better.

AUandAG

Greed, greed, and more greed. On sellers and buyers parts. It's all about the money, honey.

bob

cameonut2011

@RichR said:
And now a follow-up,,,just got off the phone with a human at eBay...the most egregious scammer will have their accounts suspended for 60 days.

This came to a head about an hour ago when the eBay algorithm sent me an automated email...asking if I wanted to pay $600 for the exact coin for which a $300 BIN was cancelled by the seller yesterday...LITERALLY THE SAME COIN...right down to an image of the confirmed Mint invoice!

So that was my breaking point!

He doesn't care and will likely create a new account using a different email address, Paypal account, and post office box.

cameonut2011

@RichR said:
And now a follow-up,,,just got off the phone with a human at eBay...the most egregious scammer will have their accounts suspended for 60 days.

This came to a head about an hour ago when the eBay algorithm sent me an automated email...asking if I wanted to pay $600 for the exact coin for which a $300 BIN was cancelled by the seller yesterday...LITERALLY THE SAME COIN...right down to an image of the confirmed Mint invoice!

So that was my breaking point!

Buy, hold it for a short time, and see if you can flip it for a profit. If not, file a SNAD and force a return on his dime. I don't normally recommend such abusive practices but this seller sorely deserves whatever happens to him.

jmlanzaf

@cameonut2011 said:

@RichR said:
And now a follow-up,,,just got off the phone with a human at eBay...the most egregious scammer will have their accounts suspended for 60 days.

This came to a head about an hour ago when the eBay algorithm sent me an automated email...asking if I wanted to pay $600 for the exact coin for which a $300 BIN was cancelled by the seller yesterday...LITERALLY THE SAME COIN...right down to an image of the confirmed Mint invoice!

So that was my breaking point!

Buy, hold it for a short time, and see if you can flip it for a profit. If not, file a SNAD and force a return on his dime. I don't normally recommend such abusive practices but this seller sorely deserves whatever happens to him.

He could.

I just like to believe that karma exists.

derryb

Rule 34: Never buy a pre-sale item on ebay.
Rule 35: Never sell a pre-sale item on ebay.

jmlanzaf

@derryb said:
Rule 34: Never buy a pre-sale item on ebay.
Rule 35: Never sell a pre-sale item on ebay.

True, but the OP was actually buying CONFIRMED post-sale coins!!!!

Rule 36?

RichR

Rule 34: Never buy a pre-sale item on ebay.
Rule 35: Never sell a pre-sale item on ebay.

Absolutely agree...but what do you do when the scum puts CONFIRMED in all caps in the title and also includes an image of the Mint order confirmation...from 12:05 PM?

derryb

Confirmed means he still does not have it in hand for immediate shipment. Confirmed means he has time to see prices rising before he actually puts it in the mail for someone who pays more.

Rule 36: "Confirmed" is still a pre-sale. You are buying it before the seller has possession of it.

derryb

@RichR said:

Do I have any options to smear these losers? My blood is literally boiling!

One option is to make a small purchase from the seller. Even a small purchase gives a buyer an opportunity to leave feedback.

Keep in mind the only thing you lost was the opportunity for a better price.

cameonut2011

@derryb said:
Confirmed means he still does not have it in hand for immediate shipment. Confirmed means he has time to see prices rising before he actually puts it in the mail for someone who pays more.

Rule 36: "Confirmed" is still a pre-sale. You are buying it before the seller has possession of it.

Confirmed means that the Mint has confirmed availability of his order and will be shipping it. It is not a license to renege on a contractual obligation. Of course few care, and it isn't worth the effort to pursue it but that doesn't legitimize what was done here. If prices had plummeted the seller would be griping and expect him to honor the sale. The issue is not trivial either as there was a clear opportunity cost, even if only for a few hours, when his funds were tied up by the seller. During that time he could have purchased elsewhere or purchased something else. Far too many here are flippant about this sort of thing.

Also the term "pre-sale" literally means before the sale. The sale started at 12 pm and ended about 15 minutes later. This is post sale. He paid a premium to avoid the pre-sale listings for a confirmed order. At that point the coin was the OP's and the buyer was a custodial holder in trust until the item could be delivered. That it was coming from the Mint says nothing. What if you purchased a large lot of bullion as a dealer and before the seller could make his way to the Post Office spot spiked and he reneged on the sale?

cameonut2011

@derryb said:
Rule 34: Never buy a pre-sale item on ebay.
Rule 35: Never sell a pre-sale item on ebay.

Rule 36: Never buy anything on eBay unless it is an absolute score or you can't buy it anywhere else.

derryb

Rule 36: "Confirmed" is still a pre-sale. You are buying it before the seller has possession of it.

Items not yet acquired by the seller

Rule 37: Ebay items are the property of the seller until placed in the hands of the buyer.

Unfortunately, ebay sales "contracts" are unenforceable without great legal expense. This makes everything a promise that, as the OP found out, can be broken with no simple recourse. Take, for example, when a buyer does not pay. While ebay may slap him on the wrist with an "unpaid item" strike, no one can force him to pay.

derryb

@cameonut2011 said:

@derryb said:
Confirmed means he still does not have it in hand for immediate shipment. Confirmed means he has time to see prices rising before he actually puts it in the mail for someone who pays more.

Rule 36: "Confirmed" is still a pre-sale. You are buying it before the seller has possession of it.

Far too many here are flippant about this sort of thing.

No, they are realists. they realize there are bad sellers on ebay and all the complaining in the world will not change that. they also realize that the "risk" increases when they buy merchandise that the seller does not yet have possession of just like the risk increases when they buy from a China based seller.

Also the term "pre-sale" literally means before the sale. The sale started at 12 pm and ended about 15 minutes later. This is post sale.

It remains an ebay pre-sale because the seller was selling merchandise on ebay not yet in his possession.

What if you purchased a large lot of bullion as a dealer and before the seller could make his way to the Post Office spot spiked and he reneged on the sale?

Simple. Like the OP, you'd not get your "score."

derryb

@MorganMan94 said:
I had that issue with one of them I bought too. I could leave feedback if I used the app but not my desktop.

OP, try this.

cameonut2011

.

jmlanzaf

@cameonut2011 said:

@derryb said:
Confirmed means he still does not have it in hand for immediate shipment. Confirmed means he has time to see prices rising before he actually puts it in the mail for someone who pays more.

Rule 36: "Confirmed" is still a pre-sale. You are buying it before the seller has possession of it.

Confirmed means that the Mint has confirmed availability of his order and will be shipping it. It is not a license to renege on a contractual obligation. Of course few care, and it isn't worth the effort to pursue it but that doesn't legitimize what was done here. If prices had plummeted the seller would be griping and expect him to honor the sale. The issue is not trivial either as there was a clear opportunity cost, even if only for a few hours, when his funds were tied up by the seller. During that time he could have purchased elsewhere or purchased something else. Far too many here are flippant about this sort of thing.

Also the term "pre-sale" literally means before the sale. The sale started at 12 pm and ended about 15 minutes later. This is post sale. He paid a premium to avoid the pre-sale listings for a confirmed order. At that point the coin was the OP's and the buyer was a custodial holder in trust until the item could be delivered. That it was coming from the Mint says nothing. What if you purchased a large lot of bullion as a dealer and before the seller could make his way to the Post Office spot spiked and he reneged on the sale?

Completely agree on all points.

The true pre-sales MIGHT have had to be canceled if the supply wasn't available to the seller. A confirmed purchase is only being canceled by a seller reneging on his contract to sell at that price.

jmlanzaf

@derryb said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@derryb said:
Confirmed means he still does not have it in hand for immediate shipment. Confirmed means he has time to see prices rising before he actually puts it in the mail for someone who pays more.

Rule 36: "Confirmed" is still a pre-sale. You are buying it before the seller has possession of it.

Far too many here are flippant about this sort of thing.

No, they are realists. they realize there are bad sellers on ebay and all the complaining in the world will not change that. they also realize that the "risk" increases when they buy merchandise that the seller does not yet have possession of just like the risk increases when they buy from a China based seller.

Also the term "pre-sale" literally means before the sale. The sale started at 12 pm and ended about 15 minutes later. This is post sale.

It remains an ebay pre-sale because the seller was selling merchandise on ebay not yet in his possession.

What if you purchased a large lot of bullion as a dealer and before the seller could make his way to the Post Office spot spiked and he reneged on the sale?

Simple. Like the OP, you'd not get your "score."

You are drawing an awfully fine line to half justify behavior that may well be illegal in many states. Whether you want to term it pre or post sale, the fact is that the seller canceled a legal sale that they COULD have completed out of sheer greed. While you are right that there is nothing that can be done about it, that doesn't really excuse it. There is little point in getting upset about it, but there is no question what the seller did is ethically, morally and possibly legally wrong.

cameonut2011

@derryb said:

Also the term "pre-sale" literally means before the sale. The sale started at 12 pm and ended about 15 minutes later. This is post sale.

It remains an ebay pre-sale because the seller was selling merchandise on ebay not yet in his possession.

Delivery to the seller was guaranteed at the point the order was confirmed; thus, the attempted distinction you draw is meaningless. What you appear to advocate for is a rule that the item is a pre-sale unless and until the seller places it in the mail or delivers it to the seller. If that's the case, then every sale is a "pre-sale" under your definition and contracts really don't matter until after the seller has performed.

jmlanzaf

@cameonut2011 said:

@derryb said:

Also the term "pre-sale" literally means before the sale. The sale started at 12 pm and ended about 15 minutes later. This is post sale.

It remains an ebay pre-sale because the seller was selling merchandise on ebay not yet in his possession.

Delivery to the seller was guaranteed at the point the order was confirmed; thus, the attempted distinction you draw is meaningless. What you appear to advocate for is a rule that the item is a pre-sale unless and until the seller places it in the mail or delivers it to the seller. If that's the case, then every sale is a "pre-sale" under your definition and contracts really don't matter until after the seller has performed.

Agree!

And, taking it one step further, EVERY DROP SELLER in the world is selling merchandise not yet in his possession that is NEVER in his possession.

I'm not sure why anyone would attempt to create any kind of justification for what happened.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

fox9487

@RichR said:
...now i feel a little better.

PM sent

fox9487

I had a seller do the same to me. Canceled as soon as prices started to really rise. Relisted for $270 more then price I paid.

Send me a PM if you would like his seller ID.

Along

If you know that it is allowed and that it will probably happen, then why play the game and complain about it ?

Coin Finder

Human behavior never disappoints.... I think it was wrong for them to cancel. Maybe they did not get through the Mints process and did not get a confirmed order. Still, they should have been honest about that and communicated that to you.