If coin dealers didn't leave shows early.....
topstuf
Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
What would happen?
Say the sponsors assigned NEXT show tables considering who spent the entire show present. 
Would there still be returnees?
The conglomerate toys, antique, car, misc show at the San Mateo fairgrounds gave us hell when we left early after 3 days there.
It was 7PM Sunday and the place was a morgue. 3 day show.
They said if I left, I could not come back.
I left.
How about coin shows? Think dealers would stay or still leave?
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Comments
If there were REAL consequences, they'd stay.
What does the contract you signed state?
Dealers leaving shows early is a symptom, not the disease.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
My dealers are on duty 24 and seven.
You may have touched a sensitive nerve lol. I would leave too.
I would leave if that venue not working out sales wise as I would not care to be coming back. I am going have to do face time at a show because of some bozo promoter when I went into the coin biz years ago (1990) to be my own boss? Nope not me been there done that when working in accounting / financial which after long career am retired from. When newly out of grad school (MS Acctg) was one of 3 financial analysts at a large chem plant. Our boss “Dan the bull” as we referred to him - you just did not leave until he did usually 6 or 630 pm. We were salaried paid for an 8 hour 730a to 4p no overtime. I remember engineers leaving at 4 sayings “those poor accountants chained to the work wagon (laughing).” Face time / you don’t get that time back find something to do if possible. However in coin biz I spend a lot of time on it bc it’s fun or for online store.
Many shows are over before a certain time due to market / sales conditions. A show ending as per bourse app at 3pm on Sunday could realistic be over at Sat at 2:30 as the flow of buyers slowed to a trickle. I usually try stay until close to close (as security concerns allow) as you never know if great deal walk in.
One should plan leaving as security concerns dictate - how long does it take pack up, taking everything out to car in one trip, security in loading area, traffic conditions, time to unload inventory once home, evening plans. Then transfer of inventory to bank box Monday. If out of town travel / airport plans can force earlier departure and that has its own additional security concerns.
I do wish more stayed. Thursday and Friday are work days. It's best for the locals/non-dealers to go to the show on Saturday. Yet, most dealers are packing up/leaving.
then again, look at the auctions. I cant help but notice, especially in my collecting area, most coins selling to dealers.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Perhaps you are advocating a return to slavery, chains, pressing men to be sailors in His Majesty's fleet.
No other forum I follow has the discussion about beating dealers to stay, duress, etc.
"Dealers leaving shows early is a symptom, not the disease." Nailed It perfectly.
Great solution: If you leave early, you can't come back next year." So if everyone leaves early, there will be no show the next rotation?
(Coinstartled, please stop reading): Ebay is open 24 x 7, on line stores are open 24 x 7, Craigslist can be perused 24 x 7.
The movie "How to lose a guy in 10 days" maybe a remake: "How to lose dealers in 10 easy steps".
Oh, but there will be THOUSANDS of customers BRIMMING with money that will show up 7 seconds before the "end" of the show, paying FULL RETAIL PLUS and want ALL your INVENTORY. Yeah, Right.
How about a show guarantee: The show sponsors, if they "require" you to stay will GUARANTEE X amount of profitable sales for (Sunday, Saturday PM, whatever).
Or maybe:
The exploding neck collars from the Running Man.
If collectors were required to remain at shows until the end, what would happen?
Dealers are running businesses and will stay as long as it's beneficial to them.
I do understand why many want to leave (travel time etc.)...however, when the shows were Friday through Sunday, Sunday was the day people left early...Now Friday and Saturday, and they are leaving early on Saturday....Friday only shows?? Then you miss all the working people......Looks like shows are dying...because of lack of dealer interest. Cheers, RickO
Dealers wouldn't come in the first place if there was no interest. But the fact is- buyers can't be forced to attend and spend money. If they're making sales, dealers will stay. If not, well you can guess what'll happen.
This issue is perennial, and raises its hoary head regularly here.
Its a vicious cycle: the fewer the dealers, the fewer the buyers, the fewer the dealers, etc. With some outlier exceptions, I'd warrant that almost all of the exciting transactions happen during the pre-show and the first day and a half of the public access.
Shows have tried punitive approaches to making sellers stay through Sunday afternoon (diminished access to better tables the next year, and so on). But obviously none of that (nor the few rewards proffered here and there) incentivize sellers enough to overcome the boredom, the desire to get on the road or to catch the earlier flight.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
I do not have the answer to the quandary, however, if something is not worked out, small shows will die...leaving only FUN and a few other large venues. That would be sad....Cheers, RickO
Dealers left early at the last FUN I attended too. It's definitely and open to lunch event otherwise selection dwindles. I wonder if it's a chicken and egg thing? Would more customers come in the afternoon if they knew the dealers would be there?
I say give other vendors who were not registered for the show the empty tables for free until the end of the event on the condition they stay to the dying end. First come first serve.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
When I was a young collector, coins were in boxes. I was a cherrypicker. I was at the door when it opened and the last one out. Not any more. Coins are still fun but the way they are exhibited - often graded in slabs leaves me cold.
Now I'm at the front door and last to leave at postcard shows. More bang for the buck!
As for dealers, I feel sorry for them. I've been stuck behind TPGS tables with little business at the end of shows.
It seems many shows are cutting out Sunday hours to help dealers. Additionally, how long a dealer stays depends on business. So what he/she is selling is important. I think the major dealers leave early because a high roller does not walk into a show on Sunday afternoon. The company business was mostly done the first or second day!
The notion that "If you build it, they will come", is faulty logic. Coin Shows... much like other venues... is predicated on the first there usually getting the better deals on the fresher stuff. Isn't that the whole impetus for an "Early Bird" fee? I understand that this will impact the people coming to a show later in the week, especially if a dealer has made back the table fees, made a profit, and needs to pack up the rest of the inventory that didn't sell. Perhaps this is more about managing expectations...
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
I'll still go to brick and mortar coin show occasionally but I have become disillusioned by nasty dealers (not all, but a lot of them) and so much "junk". The last show I went to was a little over a two hour drive each way and it had about 70 tables. I walked the entire floor in about 30 minutes and didn't see anything even worth asking about. I did get to see a coupe of dealers I've known for many years which was nice and that took up another 30 mins.
So the last show cost me about 6 hours of my time, $5 entry fee, ~$20 for lunch (w/o mustard stains
), over $50 in gas and $0 on coins.
So why do I still go to brick and mortar shows? Well about a year ago I went to a small show (about 40 tables) and found a dealer who had a lot of really nice stuff and was willing to deal. Spent ~20k+ at that dealer and I know it would have been a lot more (20 to 30%) from on line dealers. You just never know!
And there are folks like me who have a regular job and occasionally spend the money to travel to larger shows only to see half the bourse closed up on a Friday of show that ends Saturday. The dealers justify by getting in 3 days earlier to do wholesale in the hotel and are tired by the time the show is more likely open to the public. The Long Beach show and the 2017 Denver ANA come to mind.
I just came from the Albuquerque show (Fri-Sun) that was full of dealers with a waitlist, packed almost from the outset Friday and especially Saturday, and still doing business on Sunday with a 2pm close. I believe there was a $75 early leaving fee for dealers.
Then I come on this board and regularly see dealers bemoan a lack of foot traffic. And collectors bemoan dealers leaving early.
I guess it's hard to align objectives when one side of the table does the for a living and the other does it as a hobby (and beware those who try to blur the lines!)
That show cost many of those dealers a couple of days of their time, ~$200 table fee, ~$20 each day for lunch (w/ or w/o mustard stains
) and over $50 in gas.
Just sayin'.
Costs they can write off as part of business expenses. I can't write off mine as a collector.
"So the last show cost me about 6 hours of my time, $5 entry fee, ~$20 for lunch (w/o mustard stains
), over $50 in gas and $0 on coins."
But did you have fun?
Possibly not, as it takes a lot to please someone who can drop 20K at a show.
I've seen the same thing happen at several coin show dinners. The food/wine that most here including me would die for, is just not good enough for those folks who have the experience to tell the difference.
I've also been very fortunate (on a few occasions in the 1980's) to be a guest at dinners where the folks who know the difference were pleased with everything.
Deducting business costs reduces taxable income but the expenses must still be paid for.
Dealers can't write off the costs of their hobbies, either.
@MasonG said: "Dealers can't write off the costs of their hobbies, either."
Some of my bosses favorite hobby was food/wine. They wrote it off.
I'm sorry, not going to feel too bad for folks who get to do this every day as their profession. I don't get to leave work early because things are slow. Most of the smaller dealers out here are retired or semi-retired, or if a bit younger, do this as a side hustle. So it isn't their main source of income. And for the bigger dealers, it should be their focus anyway.
But to your point, this IS a hobby for the people these dealers want as customers. Then they come on here and whine about lack of foot traffic. Can't have it both ways. And by the way, the more you piss off collectors, the more likely they are to migrate to other venues, like Facebook and Instagram, which cost nothing to travel to.
But please, carry on.
The IRS has rules for hobby expenses. Either your bosses followed them or they didn't- I wouldn't know.
I guess it's a matter of perspective. Where you see dealers whining about lack of foot traffic, I see collectors whining because dealers won't make accommodations for buyers who may not even show up.
Thank you! I just might.
Sundays have become their own self generated problem. Dealers don't stay because attendance is low. Attendance is low because many of the dealers leave and the best stuff is already gone, and this cycle continues. If a dealer has to drive 8 hours to get home I don't blame him/her for skipping out on Sunday.
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
Rarely does the greater good outweigh self interest.
I suspect that there is an image play happening as well, that the sooner you leave the more successful you appear?
After the first 2 days, there's no real reason for anyone to be on EITHER side of the table.
Nice stuff is gone.
Pretty nice stuff is picked.
Dreck will be there ....again...... at the next show.
Annnndddd..... The "money" will wait til the next show.
I used to belong to a coin club that held a yearly show and would stick around until the end on Sundays to help break things down. It was a smaller show, with 30 or so tables and (aside from the local guys) all the dealers drove to attend. Since none of them had planes to catch, there was some flexibility in their departure schedule. Sunday afternoons without fail, when the hall emptied out, guys started to get antsy and began to pack up. This didn't always happen at the same time- some years it was before noon, others as late as 3PM. Make of this what you will.
For mid-sized shows, having a 3 day event is not necessary or desirable. I think having dealer setup/early bird from 9-1 and public from 1-6 on Friday, then public from 9-5 on Saturday is just fine. Security until noon on Sunday for you to get your stuff and leave.
For large shows, I'd like to see a day for dealer setup with transactions not allowed, and then the following entire day for paid admission only. Like this:
Dealer setup (no transactions allowed and no early birds) Wednesday 2-6
Thursday $100 admission for early birds 10-6
Friday and Saturday public/free 10-6
Sunday get your stuff and go
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
As much as many shows have jacked up table fees in this market somebody has a lot of nerve expecting me to stay to the last minute lol.
Now if it’s a for real retail buyer and we are working up a tally sheet and paying me cash every 2-3 or so items (Not some lookey look) until we go to next tally sure I will stay. Show me the money, not a player for free.
I had this guy come up near end of a show looked like was interested in a couple of $500 coins quoted him around CPG (very fair price) he then asked “do you have anything below bid. I buy coins below bid to sell to dealers?” Told him “nope I sell nothin below cost or bid - do you have any slabs sell me at blue sheet or around melt?” Being stuffed in the backfield - He walked off.
LOL,
Sorry to hear that you are trapped into a 9-5 job where someone controls your time. Perhaps you may want to become a coin dealer. In many cases, they don't need to punch a clock or have set hours.
When I was younger, you either went to a store, show, or mail order to get coins. One of the nastiest dealers you could think of still got plenty of business. He had the good coins. I remember one time at a show he could not be bothered to take a coin out of his case for me.
Either would I. I should think that their meals, travel. and hotel is covered by expense accounts in the IRS rules.
Buyers who tell me they won't show up because . . . they know dealers are going to be gone.> @Insider2 said:
I'm not trapped by anything. I choose to do my job, the same as others choose to deal.
I'm not terribly impressed by the dealers here who whine about the hobby and then leave early--not an hour early, but days early--and then say, yeah that last show sucked, there was no foot traffic.
I don't deal with dealers who are like that, if they want to maintain a museum or not bother to acknowledge someone, then there are plenty of other great dealers who honor their commitments and provide hobbyists with material.
Instead of dealers bitching about things here, they should listen to all of their customers, not just the well-heeled, non-dreck seeking ones who can fly in to all the shows or alternatively they just pull big coins for--there needs to be the next generation to buy those coins down the road.
I'm just glad there are many who fill that gap, who take the time to listen, who stick around, and who embrace new technologies.
As for "staying to the last minute" let's define terms. Leaving early would at least be skipping the final day, if not many days.
At the ANA in Chicago this year, dealers had already left by Wednesday.
Also, not a troll. This is RockyMtnProspector, whose account has been tied up due to the recent reset. Hopefully I can return to that shortly with Heather's assistance.
I would love to see:
A show where the dealer's are required to stay til Sunday PM
Where
A dealer sits in a chair, no tables, no coins, nothing at all in his / her space
Holding a sign that says
HA HA !! I sold EVERYTHING by SATURDAY NOON
Now other DEALERS HAVE it at JACKED UP PRICES
Should have got here early, LOSERS !!!
They probably will not have an issue again with people leaving early.
Or
Maybe I should open an UBER SPOT Service.
If you want to leave early, sell me your spots for $2 plus give me a Silver Eagle or Something. I will set up a cardboard box table in your space, as your rep, and put a slabbed 1962 Lincoln Cent VF45 or equivalent. in the space so you are technically still present with inventory to sell.
For an extra $20, I can be your Uber Face
https://www.bustle.com/p/the-human-uber-service-in-japan-is-sending-surrogates-with-tablets-on-their-faces-to-events-for-people-who-cant-attend-8075538
Who said you were? You have posted some things that I disagree with. Your 4:30 post was very clear and hard to disagree with anything in it.
What everyone needs to understand is that if the rules allow it OR THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT it is the dealer's decision ALONE. Get over it. It may not be good for the show or the last day attendees but there is nothing anyone can do or say about it (without strict enforcement of show times).
Obviously, the dealers who chose to stay and move to better spaces or spread out are glad the others left. If the show can still attract last day attendees year after year, no one gets hurt,
Dealers to people who buy their stuff: Get over it!
Also dealers: Where is everybody?
Why do I have a feeling that most shows don't have a stipulation because old-timers and big wigs make the shows offers they can't refuse so as to not have said rules? Hmmm . . .
If they all stayed there wouldn't be enough mustard for everyone.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Kind of like at a bar at 3am?
9pm- Nice ones are gone
midnight- pretty nice one ones picked
3am- dreck will be there
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
I agree. But they are in the business and their expenses should be recoverable or they won't be in the business very long. Just like me, if they can't get anything out of these little shows, they'll quit going too.
If they stayed the general public might decide to actually attend.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Of course their expenses should be recoverable. But dealers here seem to scoff at the time/money/investment of the collectors who attend.
"Just like me, if they can't get anything out of these little shows, they'll quit going too."
Same goes for me and other collectors not only attending Long Beach, ANA, or FUN. But also smaller shows like the one in Albuquerque this past weekend, which was the exact opposite of everything described here.
Of course, as you noted, expenses need to be accounted for. That doesn't change the fact that the items listed are expenses that don't have to be paid for if the dealer doesn't attend the show and sells through other venues instead. When dealers do choose to take tables, many decide not to stay until the end of a show because they have determined that doing so will cost them more than leaving early does. There are only so many hours in a day, and spending them on non-productive efforts when a better option is available doesn't help keep one in business.
Gosh this post is a rehash time and time again
First of all dealers get up way early to do shows. Many mid level dealers also have Sunday local shows and I’ll use Baltimore as my example in the afternoon... why
Well by 2:30-3pm the people walking around have spent their money and just want to chat about how half the dealers have left. Folks their are still many many dealers that stay and you could spend some time looking at their inventory instead of whining about how the big guys have left the room
Second of all and using Baltimore as an example I have a 4-5 hour ahead of me and it would be nice to get back and not have to drive in the dark. Then I have to go to my shop change inventory around so that I can get up at 5am to drive an hour tondo another local show. It ain’t easy and get it thru your head dealers work 12 hours a day or more at big shows. We like to have a life too. On the other side of the coin I firmly believe big 5 day shows are dinosaurs and I actually started a new hybrid show called The Coin and Collectibles Fair in NY which I believe is how shows should be run
1 day either Sat or Sun. And we do it 2 times a year. It’s not a local show nor is it a national show just 60 tables region with good dealers. It’s done with exhibits, clubs, and programs and we keep dealer cost very low for tables. Which means everyone wins. Dealers actually make money, collectors come to a busy show on the weekend when they are not working and there is an excitement missing from other typical shows. You see the only real reason to go to a show is not just for a coin heck you can go on the Internet for that. The reason is to interact with people, to see things in hand and chat with others in person. If one understands that this is a hobby and tries to give back some knowledge to someone new, meet an old friend at a show or trade a coin with a dealer then bam you will get something out of it. If you want to come to a major show at the last two hours and your gonna whine then really there is not a lot of hope for you. You want dealers to stay then make it worth their time. Buy a coin sell a coin but don’t waste their time and then come on a forum and complain. You want some fun then I’ll personally invite you to my show on Dec 15th and guarantee that if you keep an open mind you’ll actually have a good time.
The dealers who leave early aren't going to start staying based on the hopes that the public might attend- just won't happen.