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1910 LWC with VBD ( how to verify? )
Dove73
Posts: 81 ✭✭
While taking photos of my slabed 1910 LWC, I noticed what appears to be VBD on the reverse. I would like for an expert to examine it just so I know either way. Would I send this to PCGS or a specific error expert? Here are a couple of photos.
1
Comments
I see something, sort of... but the position isn't correct for VDB. A clearer picture is needed.
Collector, occasional seller
If those slanted lines are what you think is a V there are a couple of problems. First it is much larger than the V on the VDB cents and second the placement is too far to the right. Other than that I see nothing that resembles a VDB.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
This is a side by side
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/824949/pretty-neat-article-on-the-elusive-1910-vdb-cent
Collector, occasional seller
In your side by side, on your coin the "V" lines up to the right leg of the M in AMERICA. On the photo with the VDB, the V lines up to the left leg of the M.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
@Dove73....Welcome aboard.... There does appear to be traces of lettering there, but so faint as to be virtually indecipherable... and position is questionable. Good eye to pick it up though....Cheers, RickO
Send it to PCGS for reholder and to get a TrueView image of the coin out of the holder. If you are feeling even more brave, send it to PCGS with a notation about what you suspect on the reverse and ask them to verify it along with the TrueView.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Thank you all for your comments! I sent it in today ..should get there Saturday.
I was taking pictures of this coin to sell it originally...until I saw this VDB on the reverse.
Its worth the money for my own piece of mind, to know an expert has looked at this coin .
Please let us all know how it goes and with pics of the slabbed coin.
It’ll be a good learning experience for all.
I'm going to put in my vote for pareidolia
Dove, there aint no VDB on your coin. You are wasting your money.
ANACS did in fact grade one I recall. Anyone have access to ANACS inventory ??
I am in the camp that it is possible, but NOBODY has shown me one that would convince me. Maybe you will be the first.
WS
I seem to recall one in an old SEGS holder
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Actually Dennis, just to confuse matters more - that was a 1910 S VDB you may be thinking about???
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/746341/i-saw-a-tpg-authenticated-1910-s-vdb-today-at-the-greenville-sc-show
Here's the update, prior to
sending this in I wanted to make sure..every box was checked correctly. I called customer service and explained what I had and wanted to make sure this went to a major mint error specialist. He put me on hold to speak to his manager and then walked me through what boxes to check. Turns out ..a month later it was just reholdered and pics taken. But, the good news is no scratch Mark's on the slabe. PCGS said they will send a shipping label to me to send it back in. I was able to get a little clearer pic without the scratches:)
Another pic
What did the label say?
Let us know how it goes.
Hmm... Interesting if Fred would be the authenticator.
It was already slabed when I bought it..same everything, just reholdered . 1910 RB MS63 The gal that I spoke with after not seeing any variety designation said something like ..Is this an approved variety? I told her my conversation prior to sending, I explained to the gentleman on the phone that I dont believe PCGS has ever certified one.
So..now I question ...send it back in again...or send it to Mr. Wexler...any ideas I would be grateful for.
Ofcourse I would LOVE for Mr. Weinberg to be the one to view my coin but from my understanding ( have had coins graded but never errors ) its random as to the specialist that examines the coin..as well as two others.. Its only what I have read so I could be very wrong.
@Dove73 "reholdered and pics taken"
Can we see the pics?
Did you check the box to request a TrueView image like I suggested? If not, why not? Did PCGS miss that, too? A TrueView would give all of us far superior images of what you might be seeing in-hand and it only costs a few dollars.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Photo is not clear enough and there is a shadow from the tab.
If it is a Gold Shield a TrueView should be available.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
The variety has to be in the CPG for PCGS to recognize it. Do you have an FS # to associate your coin?:
https://www.pcgs.com/varietyfaq
“Fivaz-Stanton Varieties from the Cherrypickers Guide, Fourth Edition Vol. II and Fifth Edition Vol. I“
Probably old news to most, but kind of neat:
By Dr. Sol Taylor
"Making Cents"
Saturday, May 10, 2008
In August 1909, the two United States Mints began releasing the new 1909 Lincoln cent — some 3/4-million from San Francisco and 26 million from the Philadelphia Mint. By the end of the first week, Chief Mint Engraver Charles Barber ordered production halted and all working dies with the initials "VDB" (Victor D. Brenner, the coin's designer) to be removed.
It was evident to me, many years later as a serious collector of Lincoln cents, that many 1909 "no VDB" cents had abrasion marks on the lower reverse where the dies were tooled to remove the initials.
Several hundred dies that were used, as well as hundreds of others awaiting use, were taken to the metal shop to have the initials removed. These dies were used later in the year to produce many of the new coins. In addition, new dies with no evidence of any initials came on line and produced the bulk of the remaining 1909 coins.
I noted many years ago that many uncirculated 1910 cents also showed these same abrasion marks on the lower reverse.
I concluded that some 1909 dies which had their initials removed were put into service in 1910 — since they saw so little (or no) use in the first week of August 1909.
It was around 1964 that I concluded that it was possible that some 1910 cents might bear traces of the "VDB" initials if not carefully removed in 1909. I published an article to that effect in the Numismatic Association of Southern California's NASC Quarterly. At the time, no one had seriously explored the possibility, and certainly no one had found any 1910 "VDB" cents.
It wasn't until 1985 that I found a 1910 cent in mint condition with traces of the "VDB." I sent it to Coin World. They returned it, uncertain if the marks were parts of the "VDB" or stray abrasion traces. No photograph was able to bring out the initial traces.
About 1995, Bill Fivaz (coauthor of "Cherrypickers' Guide to Rare Die Varieties") sent a certified matte proof 1910 cent to the Society of Lincoln Cent Collectors with pretty clear evidence of a "D" in the proper location of the "VDB" initials. That coin has been sold at least twice since then. However, once again, no certification service would certify the initial.
In an auction conducted by Bowers & Merena in the mid 1990s, Dave Bowers commented on a 1909-S VDB cent in the sale stating that the coin was originally listed as "1909-S." Later, under more careful scrutiny, it was evident that there were the tops of "VDB" on the reverse. He added that such faint "VDB" cents could easily pass casual inspection.
In several conversations over the years, Bowers admitted it was likely that a few 1910 "VDB" cents could exist, and he would love to see one. The specimen I found in 1985 was sold to a Brooklyn coin dealer who agreed that the tops of the VDB were there, and he has since resold it to a collector.
In the reference book on Lincoln cents by Flynn & Wexler, a full page is devoted to this enigmatic variety, and two photos which may actually show portions of the "VDB." To date, at least three other reputed 1910 "VDB" cents have been reported, but none has been certified by a major grading service. It is clear, however, that dies which originally had the "VDB" were used to produce coins in 1909 as well as in 1910.
Once a clearly defined specimen is located, all my speculation and research may bear fruit.
Posted here 8 years ago. more discussion here https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/824949/pretty-neat-article-on-the-elusive-1910-vdb-cent
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
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Thanks @1630Boston
That’s good old news.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/30909816
"No image available"
Did you make the trueview pictures not public? Or are they not uploaded yet?
Collector, occasional seller
PCGS said they would probably be up next week. The only issue is I would be suprized if it shows in the picture. The only reason I discovered it was because I was trying to take photos in the old scratched up slab, and was trying different angles to avoid the glare and scratch marks. If they take images head on... the picture probably wont be to exciting.
I think it would be considered a discovery coin. I'm not aware of any the have recieved the variety attribution. Although I could be wrong?
That would be cool!
"It was evident to me, many years later as a serious collector of Lincoln cents, that many 1909 "no VDB" cents had abrasion marks on the lower reverse where the dies were tooled to remove the initials."
I bought this 1909 as such an example. It has been discussed here and ATS. It came from a member here.
Nice, never saw one like it. Eventually, if true, someone with the desire and a lot of time (and coins) on their hands will be able to match a 1909-VDB reverse and a 1910 reverse.
Dove, there aint no VDB on your coin. You are wasting your money.
I agree with this.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
We've been through this before. It is possible because undated reverse Cent dies could be used through more than one year.
But did it happen?
Roger Burdette would vehemently say "Baloney" to the notion.
Me..........well I'm just a G.I. in this Army. Judgments like this are better made by the "Generals".
Pete
Looks like the truview is up. I see nothing that resembles a VDB
Just an update ...the gentleman i spoke with at customer service ( before sending it in) walked me through the submission form..what boxes to check yadda yadda. He even said he had to put me on hold to talk to his manager to make sure it got to the proper department. Long story short he gave me inaccurate information and i would have been better off trusting my own judgment. I digress..it never made it to mint errors..was cracked out w pics taken and sent back. So..i contacted pcgs when i didnt see any attribution and the first gal i spoke with said...hmm..yeah it looks like they didnt see the error. I emailed Fred Weinberg, hoping by chance he saw the coin or heard from the department what it actually was..and he kindly responded that it had not made it to the mint error division as far as he knew.. and this coin was in que to be shipped at that time.. I called back to PCGS.. and spoke to someone different that confirmed it never went to the mint error division.. she put me on hold to see if she could stop it from being ..no go. So I got it back in the mail..and had to send it back:(
At least it’s on our hosts dime.
Most mech errors have a very quick turnaround.
I see your TruView and blow it up in the area of interest and see nothing.
This is the problem. It isnt visible looking straight on. If in fact, they did polish off the V.D.B and reuse the die for a 1910 , I would assume it shouldnt be visible from that angle. ( any thoughts on this theory? )
When I was taking pictures I had to tilt the slab because their were scratches on the top that would show up in the photos. Before sending it back I tried to get a better photo, again ..Im certainly not know for great photography skills..just a picture using my cell phone.