Fakes that aren't fakes
AUandAG
Posts: 24,810 ✭✭✭✭✭
Since the US made no such coin these technically are not fakes. But, since they do Say United States and One Dollar are they fakes? Anyway, I'm the high bidder and will be leaving a negative if he goes through with the sale. I did notify him that they are not real US coins. Looking at the pics he has dozens of these and some fake gold to sell.
bob 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1865-cool-comeratice-George-Washington-1-Coin-size-of-a-dollar-coin-24k/163915220734?\
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
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as i simply understand it, this is how carr and possibly others make some similar resemblances without legal problems in that they are designated "fantasy pieces." - not sure where ebay falls on this point.
i'd have to re-read the most up-to-date language for the HPA and others governing such pieces. The last time i read it, the mandate was a bit vague and broad in that "similarity" was the power word used iirc with some specific language as to the words and design elements that could or could not be replicated with or without the word "replica or copy" being in raised lettering.
personally i would prohibit all of it if it were up to me as dealers/collectors have enough challenges. although i do appreciate that educated collectors do enjoy some very esoteric and possibly modern pieces and are not the problem.
i am also not saying that anyone selling these are items like these are doing so with ill intent.
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Kind of strange that the counterfeiter would make such a blatant error on the quarter. I'd say these are still fakes... they just messed up horribly especially on the date.
I realize that there is a difference of opinion regarding such items. However, I believe that they fall under the below language from the Hobby Protection Act. https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=6ba90b1f402763bcb0388569596c3f4b&rgn=div5&view=text&node=16:1.0.1.3.28&idno=16
“(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The difference with Dan's coins is that he overstrikes / defaces genuine US coins which is legal. Some people do not agree with or recognize the difference, but that is the difference here as well. The coin in the OP is not overstruck a genuine US dollar coin.
Every dollar that goes into fakes and replicas is another buck out of the legitimate hobby.
Don't have any....don't want any.
fwiw. there is great value in having some of the older ones and possibly newer ones for study like burfle, arizonararecoins and a few others here have posted. i do appreciate your stance though.
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I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
There are plenty of over sized or miniature replicas on the market. I believe they fall within legal limits.
Your time and effort would be better spent on a listing that is trying to deceive. There are plenty of counterfeits on ebay to choose from. I try to be careful how much upset I cause on ebay by only doing about 4 or 5 per year. There is a fair chance you could get a slap from ebay for auction interference, they will slap you for that before they will slap a seller of counterfeit coins. You could chase your tail with this junk forever.
Take it from a Dawg that likes to bark up the wrong tree & chase his tail.
Just my 2 cents
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Oversized-1916-3-Liberty-Head-Dime-Metal-Coin-Coaster-Paperweight/292318233749?hash=item440f864495:g:b1MAAOSwEEBZ~hAb
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Oversized-Jefferson-Nickel-Coin-Paperweight-Novelty-Currency/303110651135?hash=item4692cd7cff:g:BzwAAOSwd9dcnW9x
https://www.ebay.com/itm/25-Miniature-Coins-St-Gaudens-Gold-Color/143417723188?hash=item21645cc934:g:qLUAAOSwwwRdbay5
.> @Zoins said:
I’m one of those who doesn't agree. The “imitation numismatic item” language from the Hobby Protection Act also reads:
“Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified.”
I believe that Mr. Carr’s 1964 Peace Dollars would be subject to that language. That’s not changed by the fact that possibly no genuine examples exist today, that the overstrikes are popular with collectors, that Mr. Carr hasn’t been prosecuted, that he’s not trying to deceive anyone and that his creations are priced at a tiny fraction of what genuine examples would cost.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What is the point of bidding on an item you don’t want and then threatening the seller with negative feedback? Why not just report the item if you suspect it breaks a rule and let ebay decide?
I'm a bit prejudiced. As an antique toy dealer who advertised worldwide, I watched as the repos COMPLETELY destroyed the entire market.
Toy shows were more fun than any kind I've ever seen.
It was also absolute PROOF that buying what you haven't seen is imperative.
My table had the ODD stuff. We sold out ever show.
Great question. I bid on fakes to watch them....too many to track. I did not threaten a neg to the seller. I politely indicated that what he is doing is illegal and a violation of ebay rules and then copied ebay rules on replicas and sent a recent court case of a prosecution of a fellow ebayer that got 30 months for selling fakes. I do not report to ebay immediately but will wait a day or two if it is a week long auction.
bob
So you're buying a piece you admit is "technically not a fake" to then leave a negative if the seller follows through with the transaction?
No words.
Is there a way to test the validity of your view and Dan's view?
It's been almost 10 years since Dan first issued the 1964-D Peace Dollar and there have been no legal incidents that I'm aware of.
You have great intentions,
I think eBay could police these if they wanted to.
who is your inquiry directed towards and what view(s) specifically. too much quoted for me to focus.
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No such coin ever existed thus this is a fantasy piece. You decide to bid and buy and threaten to leave negative feedback? Crazy world
Ebay has a watch item function that works perfectly well. If you were genuinely concerned about buyers’ safety, reporting to ebay ASAP would be the most obvious action. What you’re doing seems more like harassment.
That is obviously a fantasy piece and I would not want one.....not sure about others. Cheers, RickO
It’s directed to the person I was responding to
The "1865 ONE DOLLAR" is a counterfeit made to deceive. The fact that there is no such coin is irrelevant.
Why did you bid on it if you know it's not a real coin? I dont understand your logic.
I don't think the gold is fake - but it doesn't "have" to be. I have read that one ounce of gold can be made into a square miles of gold plate. These gold flakes might be a little thicker than gold plate, but not much. In other words the "free" gold has virtually no weight - worthless but not fake.
The coin probably was never intended to deceive. Depending on its' content, it could have been made as a bullion piece.
Pete
My take....
It is technically a fantasy piece, but if you market it the wrong way you could be prosecuted for counterfeiting.
The Liberty Dollars that landed Bernard von Nothaus in court were not in any way replicas of actual coins but a jury still decided they were counterfeits.
I don't see that medal as being any different than a Dan Carr piece. In fact, it's somewhat less deceptive than a 1964 Peace Dollar which actually existed.
That said, it's a $4 item which is advertised properly [grammar excepted] so if you want to spend time hunting this particular snipe, you need a new hobby for your copious free time. Can I recommend stamps?
Carr strikes his over real coins, so he isn't creating Quarter or Dollars.
These are struck out of whatever, so they made a coin. BIG difference.
When people started calling me a Carr hater, I quit giving my opinion. Many felt the need to beat the crap out of those that spoke up against the product. Way more drama than I care for.
Yes, litigation. But unless or until that occurs, I don't expect anything to be resolved.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Is there something holding you, and others, back? Dan says he’s ready to defend himself in court.
Yes. I have no desire to spend whatever time and money would be involved. And in the grand scheme of things, it’s minuscule. I can’t speak for others.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Perhaps legal standing. I doubt Carr’s customers see themselves as victims
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
As I seem to recall the 1964 Peace Dollars were never monetized and therefore may not be considered an original numismatic item, any more than any of the the trial strikes in existence.
This is all about splitting hairs, and gov.com can do whatever they feel like doing, so this discussion is moot.
I think they call that putting your money where your mouth is.