We Yankee fans this year call it pulling a Dave Dombrowski...
Never liked Dumbo, nor his sidekick Tony (I fell asleep at the wheel totally drunk at a stop light) LaRussa. Dumbo should have had Alex (I'm not even close to being a manager) Cora, and Tony follow him out the door. Inexplicably, they have kept Tony and Alex.
I have written many, many negative posts about the inept performance of the team and management. I predicted somewhere last May that the team was on a downward projection. No spark, no pitching, no hustle, no key hits with RISPs, where a simple single would have won several games. It was like a choke-a-thon. Their one spark was taking 3/4 from the Bombers...then it was "turn out the lights, the parties over".
Uber overpaid millionaires playing a kid's game with lackluster performance. To think they went from winning it all to almost the cellar in one fell swoop is stunning. Because of Dumbo's dismal future planning, there are almost no farm system players to look to as even Prospects...I believe the Red Sox team will look vastly different than they do today, and I also believe it'll be years before they are competitive again. I will not renew my baseball package next year.
The Astros may be a bridge too far for your team. I'd wish you good luck, but then I'd be forever banned from any family gatherings.
Awesome post - yes, it will be very very tough to beat the Astros. Most well rounded team in baseball...
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it’s near criminal that David Ortiz, a DH, never won an MVP'
I tend to think it's "near criminal" to even have the DH as a part of the game. to allow anyone to extend a career by only batting is a "farce" itself. to have allowed anyone to win the MVP by only hitting and playing in the field is what I would call a "criminal farce" and that's being kind.
if you can't play in the field without embarrassing yourself and your Team you shouldn't have the luxury of being able to step into the batters box.
@keets said: it’s near criminal that David Ortiz, a DH, never won an MVP'
I tend to think it's "near criminal" to even have the DH as a part of the game. to allow anyone to extend a career by only batting is a "farce" itself. to have allowed anyone to win the MVP by only hitting and playing in the field is what I would call a "criminal farce" and that's being kind.
if you can't play in the field without embarrassing yourself and your Team you shouldn't have the luxury of being able to step into the batters box.
The rules permit a DH in American League ballparks. As such, said player plays no position in the field, instead hitting in place of the pitcher. You are allowed to have an opinion on the DH but it plays a pivotal role on American League team regardless of your opinion.
Also, I can’t really think of another DH who would remotely be worthy of consideration but David Ortiz was a lethal and unique offensive player and to dismiss him for how he was deployed by his team.
I mean, here’s a guy who would have a dozen or more late inning, game deciding hits a year - easily. Weighed against his lack of games played at 1B, he’s still worthy of MVP consideration and deserved it one or twice.
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I too find it funny how everyone is pushing the 'value' of Bregman over Trout because the Astros won the division. Fact is, Verlander and Cole are the most important, or 'valuable', players on that team, not Bregman.
It is true that defense comprises half the game...but the pitcher is responsible for 90% of the defense....or in the case of Verlander and Cole, 95% since they strike 'everyone' out
That being said, Bregman had a great enough year in his own right to be the MVP(and I agree that he is the MVP this year)...but some of the nonsense people are saying about Trout is just plain silly.
Trout's team is terrible because they have 23 really bad baseball players on their roster. Bregman's team is great because they have elite players everywhere, not because Bregman is more valuable than Trout, or because Trout doesn't do enough to win.
The Angels starting pitching is sooo bad that they only had one starter pitch 100 innings this year, Trevor Cahill checking in at 102 with a whopping 5.98 ERA. Just look yourself at their starting pitching...ERA's of 7.11 an 6.42 are downright awful.
Angles starting pitchers had a 5.64 ERA. Look no further as to why that team was bad.
If you do want to look further, here are the sOPS+ of each Angels position:
79, 87, 94, 66, 80, 85, 164, 105, and 94.
Yes, that 164 is Trout's position total(including his substitutes). Everyone else sucked, and the RF was average.
With a team with pitching that BAD, and Hitting that terrible....they still managed to win 72 games. That tells you how good Trout is.
Yet, as loaded as Houston is, if singling out a lone individual responsible for winning is your thing.... Verlander is that guy, as he is the primary reason why they even have a WS championship.
The rules permit a DH in American League ballparks.
my point is simple, to equate a guy who only hits to a guy who has to not only hit but be good enough in the field to help his Team there is ridiculous. maybe Ortiz was the best DH in certain years, several years or all-time, but in any year he wasn't the best PLAYER and the voters were smart enough to know that.
I'm an AL fan and I hate the DH because of how it distorts the game. there are too many times when a starting pitcher would be relieved via a PH if he batted. also, I believe removing the DH would alter the way hitters hit and game strategy.
@keets said: it’s near criminal that David Ortiz, a DH, never won an MVP'
I tend to think it's "near criminal" to even have the DH as a part of the game. to allow anyone to extend a career by only batting is a "farce" itself. to have allowed anyone to win the MVP by only hitting and playing in the field is what I would call a "criminal farce" and that's being kind.
if you can't play in the field without embarrassing yourself and your Team you shouldn't have the luxury of being able to step into the batters box.
The rules permit a DH in American League ballparks. As such, said player plays no position in the field, instead hitting in place of the pitcher. You are allowed to have an opinion on the DH but it plays a pivotal role on American League team regardless of your opinion.
Also, I can’t really think of another DH who would remotely be worthy of consideration but David Ortiz was a lethal and unique offensive player and to dismiss him for how he was deployed by his team.
I mean, here’s a guy who would have a dozen or more late inning, game deciding hits a year - easily. Weighed against his lack of games played at 1B, he’s still worthy of MVP consideration and deserved it one or twice.
I kind of agree in regard to Ortiz.
In 2005 and 2006 Ortiz led the AL in Win Probability Added, and by large margins. Not going to get stat heavy on this case, but he also was near the very top in other valid offensive measurements.
But since he led by large margins in WPA, even if you did add the defensive element to Morneau and Jeter who beat him out one of those years, and Arod who beat him out in the other year....Ortiz still beats them WITH the faulty defensive measurements added.
Throw the defensive and positional adjustment portions of WAR out the window, because those two elements have very little validity to them.
The crazy thing is Ortiz actually had a higher WAR than both Morneau and Jeter the year they beat him out in 2006. That isn't even accounting for the Win Probability Added in which Ortiz trounced them both...especially Morneau who actually won the award. Ortiz was at 7.8 and Morneau at 4.6.
I would say for certain that Ortiz was hands down the 2006 MVP. Not even a contest.
Throw the defensive and positional adjustment portions of WAR out the window, because those two elements have very little validity to them.
yeah, they're so in-valid that the Red Sox weren't willing to let him play the whole season in the field, most likely at first base. that slow, fat man couldn't have done it, he would have been a liability in the field.
do you think it's an accident that he "made" his career in the AL?? the DH has saved, extended and made many players. without it they'd be selling Real Estate. no way could Ortiz have played his years in the NL.
@Skin2 said:
But since he led by large margins in WPA, even if you did add the defensive element to Morneau and Jeter who beat him out one of those years, and Arod who beat him out in the other year....Ortiz still beats them WITH the faulty defensive measurements added.
All true, and I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, but just wanted to throw an idea out there. Doesn't a DH have a kind of Ken Phelps problem? Granted, while not being good enough at baseball to play first base or LF is embarrassing, it does not have the same impact as not being able to hit lefties. But it has some negative impact, and a "position" adjustment of some kind, a negative one, seems to be merited. If Ortiz' WPA margin was substantial (I didn't look up the numbers since you already did), then it isn't likely to matter in that case, but I think a DH does - and should - start off in a hole relative to the actual baseball players.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@keets said: Throw the defensive and positional adjustment portions of WAR out the window, because those two elements have very little validity to them.
yeah, they're so in-valid that the Red Sox weren't willing to let him play the whole season in the field, most likely at first base. that slow, fat man couldn't have done it, he would have been a liability in the field.
do you think it's an accident that he "made" his career in the AL?? the DH has saved, extended and made many players. without it they'd be selling Real Estate. no way could Ortiz have played his years in the NL.
I have mixed feelings about the DH, but in Ortiz's case I think the fans win by being able to watch him hit.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Skin2 said:
But since he led by large margins in WPA, even if you did add the defensive element to Morneau and Jeter who beat him out one of those years, and Arod who beat him out in the other year....Ortiz still beats them WITH the faulty defensive measurements added.
All true, and I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, but just wanted to throw an idea out there. Doesn't a DH have a kind of Ken Phelps problem? Granted, while not being good enough at baseball to play first base or LF is embarrassing, it does not have the same impact as not being able to hit lefties. But it has some negative impact, and a "position" adjustment of some kind, a negative one, seems to be merited. If Ortiz' WPA margin was substantial (I didn't look up the numbers since you already did), then it isn't likely to matter in that case, but I think a DH does - and should - start off in a hole relative to the actual baseball players.
Nothing at all like Ken Phelps. Ken Phelps was incapable of being in a MLB lineup on a daily basis. David Ortiz WAS capable of being in a lineup on a daily basis...filling the DH position.
Does his inability to play other positions hamstring the team? Maybe in a tiny way. Does it limit his employment opportunities? Yes.
However, once he is employed and playing every day....his offense was enough to make him an MVP. The random guy playing LF catching routine fly balls, eh...is simply not as valuable as the commodity of hitting 40 HR and batting .320.
However, once he is employed and playing every day....his offense was enough to make him an MVP. The random guy playing LF catching routine fly balls, eh...is simply not as valuable as the commodity of hitting 40 HR and batting .320.
I don't think anyone is arguing that 2006 David Ortiz is less valuable than, say, 2019 Christin Stewart.
If you can't play half the game, no MVP for you. The only thing weaker than the DH is a relief pitcher. No matter how good you are at those positions, you shouldn't sniff an award or the HOF.
Without DJ LeMahieu, the New York Yankees would not have won 100 games this season. With him, they won 103. He was consistently clutch in both hitting and fielding over the course of the entire season. His versatility on the field was incomparable. He has earned my vote.
"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
I know the stat guys say that you should "trust the numbers, not your lyin' eyes", but unlike most of the board members here, besides watching on TV, I actually attend a significant number of MLB games in person, watching all of the players and seeing how they perform not only on the field, but also taking note of what they do when not involved in the play, of body language and interaction with teammates, fans, etc. This is not an opinion of Trout that I've just formed. I've been banging this drum since he arrived on the scene. There is indeed something missing with Trout. Yes, he's a "superstar", but he is not the player everyone makes him out to be. I don't invoke this name lightly, but he's always reminded me of ARod, as far as his inauthenticity and fake tough guy and fake winning is everything public persona.
I know this opinion is ridiculed. There is nothing that can be said here in response that I haven't heard before. But every year, more and more, I slowly win over converts that will at least admit there appears to be some merit to what I've observed. Laugh all you want. Accuse me of trolling or being crazy or just trying to subvert the market for Trout's cards so I can buy some more cheaply, but there is clearly to me something observable in his makeup that he's lacking as far as mental toughness or clutchness or able to rise to the occasion. I'm not talking about the ability to be the best All-Star on a field of All-Stars in an exhibition. You can argue that point and I'd likely agree. But he wilts in the big moments that matter. You can quote WPA, or fall back on "small sample size", but I'll quote actual W's and retort that "life is nothing but a sample size of one". You either get it done or you don't. Soooo many other players do, Trout doesn't. Just ask yourself honestly, any signature moment in this current postseason, try to imagine the outcome if Trout was at the plate vs Altuve or Soto or Bregman or Rondon or Springer or... I can only imagine failure from Trout in that situation. That's gonna be his whole career, just watch. Big numbers when it doesn't matter, wasted and insignificant in the whole scheme of things.
I don't give Trout any slack, or accept any excuse, that the team that he plays for is the reason for his lack of signature moments. If George Brett, the 147th best third baseman of all time, can make himself into a Hall of Famer by putting a team on his back time after time after time after time and literally willing them to victory, then the "Greatest Player Since Babe Ruth" should be able to do it at least once, and then go out and do it again and again, also. That's all I'm saying.
@countdouglas said:
I know the stat guys say that you should "trust the numbers, not your lyin' eyes", but unlike most of the board members here, besides watching on TV, I actually attend a significant number of MLB games in person, watching all of the players and seeing how they perform not only on the field, but also taking note of what they do when not involved in the play, of body language and interaction with teammates, fans, etc. This is not an opinion of Trout that I've just formed. I've been banging this drum since he arrived on the scene. There is indeed something missing with Trout. Yes, he's a "superstar", but he is not the player everyone makes him out to be. I don't invoke this name lightly, but he's always reminded me of ARod, as far as his inauthenticity and fake tough guy and fake winning is everything public persona.
"fake tough guy" ?
You lost all credibility just by saying this. When has Mike Trout ever projected himself as a tough guy, fake or otherwise? Never.
In light of new information, I am switching my vote for AL MVP to the Houston Astros locker room garbage can located nearest to the dugout, narrowly beating out the Houston Astros laptop.
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@Darin said:
I voted for Bregman. I will admit I thought last year might have been a fluke for Alex. But this year
convinced me he is the real deal. Monster year.
For Trout its the same old thing. Piling up numbers for a losing team. How valuable can you be when
you keep playing for a loser team year after year ad nauseum.
I lost all respect for all hitters on Houston. It helps a BUNCH knowing what pitch is coming. Actually they all should have done better under the circumstances! What a bunch of CHEATERS!!!
Comments
Awesome post - yes, it will be very very tough to beat the Astros. Most well rounded team in baseball...
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it’s near criminal that David Ortiz, a DH, never won an MVP'
I tend to think it's "near criminal" to even have the DH as a part of the game. to allow anyone to extend a career by only batting is a "farce" itself. to have allowed anyone to win the MVP by only hitting and playing in the field is what I would call a "criminal farce" and that's being kind.
if you can't play in the field without embarrassing yourself and your Team you shouldn't have the luxury of being able to step into the batters box.
MVP awards bore me to no end. Yaaaaaaawn.
COPPER is gutter !
The rules permit a DH in American League ballparks. As such, said player plays no position in the field, instead hitting in place of the pitcher. You are allowed to have an opinion on the DH but it plays a pivotal role on American League team regardless of your opinion.
Also, I can’t really think of another DH who would remotely be worthy of consideration but David Ortiz was a lethal and unique offensive player and to dismiss him for how he was deployed by his team.
I mean, here’s a guy who would have a dozen or more late inning, game deciding hits a year - easily. Weighed against his lack of games played at 1B, he’s still worthy of MVP consideration and deserved it one or twice.
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I too find it funny how everyone is pushing the 'value' of Bregman over Trout because the Astros won the division. Fact is, Verlander and Cole are the most important, or 'valuable', players on that team, not Bregman.
It is true that defense comprises half the game...but the pitcher is responsible for 90% of the defense....or in the case of Verlander and Cole, 95% since they strike 'everyone' out
That being said, Bregman had a great enough year in his own right to be the MVP(and I agree that he is the MVP this year)...but some of the nonsense people are saying about Trout is just plain silly.
Trout's team is terrible because they have 23 really bad baseball players on their roster. Bregman's team is great because they have elite players everywhere, not because Bregman is more valuable than Trout, or because Trout doesn't do enough to win.
The Angels starting pitching is sooo bad that they only had one starter pitch 100 innings this year, Trevor Cahill checking in at 102 with a whopping 5.98 ERA. Just look yourself at their starting pitching...ERA's of 7.11 an 6.42 are downright awful.
Angles starting pitchers had a 5.64 ERA. Look no further as to why that team was bad.
If you do want to look further, here are the sOPS+ of each Angels position:
79, 87, 94, 66, 80, 85, 164, 105, and 94.
Yes, that 164 is Trout's position total(including his substitutes). Everyone else sucked, and the RF was average.
With a team with pitching that BAD, and Hitting that terrible....they still managed to win 72 games. That tells you how good Trout is.
Yet, as loaded as Houston is, if singling out a lone individual responsible for winning is your thing.... Verlander is that guy, as he is the primary reason why they even have a WS championship.
The rules permit a DH in American League ballparks.
my point is simple, to equate a guy who only hits to a guy who has to not only hit but be good enough in the field to help his Team there is ridiculous. maybe Ortiz was the best DH in certain years, several years or all-time, but in any year he wasn't the best PLAYER and the voters were smart enough to know that.
I'm an AL fan and I hate the DH because of how it distorts the game. there are too many times when a starting pitcher would be relieved via a PH if he batted. also, I believe removing the DH would alter the way hitters hit and game strategy.
I kind of agree in regard to Ortiz.
In 2005 and 2006 Ortiz led the AL in Win Probability Added, and by large margins. Not going to get stat heavy on this case, but he also was near the very top in other valid offensive measurements.
But since he led by large margins in WPA, even if you did add the defensive element to Morneau and Jeter who beat him out one of those years, and Arod who beat him out in the other year....Ortiz still beats them WITH the faulty defensive measurements added.
Throw the defensive and positional adjustment portions of WAR out the window, because those two elements have very little validity to them.
The crazy thing is Ortiz actually had a higher WAR than both Morneau and Jeter the year they beat him out in 2006. That isn't even accounting for the Win Probability Added in which Ortiz trounced them both...especially Morneau who actually won the award. Ortiz was at 7.8 and Morneau at 4.6.
I would say for certain that Ortiz was hands down the 2006 MVP. Not even a contest.
Throw the defensive and positional adjustment portions of WAR out the window, because those two elements have very little validity to them.
yeah, they're so in-valid that the Red Sox weren't willing to let him play the whole season in the field, most likely at first base. that slow, fat man couldn't have done it, he would have been a liability in the field.
do you think it's an accident that he "made" his career in the AL?? the DH has saved, extended and made many players. without it they'd be selling Real Estate. no way could Ortiz have played his years in the NL.
All true, and I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, but just wanted to throw an idea out there. Doesn't a DH have a kind of Ken Phelps problem? Granted, while not being good enough at baseball to play first base or LF is embarrassing, it does not have the same impact as not being able to hit lefties. But it has some negative impact, and a "position" adjustment of some kind, a negative one, seems to be merited. If Ortiz' WPA margin was substantial (I didn't look up the numbers since you already did), then it isn't likely to matter in that case, but I think a DH does - and should - start off in a hole relative to the actual baseball players.
I have mixed feelings about the DH, but in Ortiz's case I think the fans win by being able to watch him hit.
Nothing at all like Ken Phelps. Ken Phelps was incapable of being in a MLB lineup on a daily basis. David Ortiz WAS capable of being in a lineup on a daily basis...filling the DH position.
Does his inability to play other positions hamstring the team? Maybe in a tiny way. Does it limit his employment opportunities? Yes.
However, once he is employed and playing every day....his offense was enough to make him an MVP. The random guy playing LF catching routine fly balls, eh...is simply not as valuable as the commodity of hitting 40 HR and batting .320.
I don't think anyone is arguing that 2006 David Ortiz is less valuable than, say, 2019 Christin Stewart.
If you can't play half the game, no MVP for you. The only thing weaker than the DH is a relief pitcher. No matter how good you are at those positions, you shouldn't sniff an award or the HOF.
ETA: F Mariano
Without DJ LeMahieu, the New York Yankees would not have won 100 games this season. With him, they won 103. He was consistently clutch in both hitting and fielding over the course of the entire season. His versatility on the field was incomparable. He has earned my vote.
I know the stat guys say that you should "trust the numbers, not your lyin' eyes", but unlike most of the board members here, besides watching on TV, I actually attend a significant number of MLB games in person, watching all of the players and seeing how they perform not only on the field, but also taking note of what they do when not involved in the play, of body language and interaction with teammates, fans, etc. This is not an opinion of Trout that I've just formed. I've been banging this drum since he arrived on the scene. There is indeed something missing with Trout. Yes, he's a "superstar", but he is not the player everyone makes him out to be. I don't invoke this name lightly, but he's always reminded me of ARod, as far as his inauthenticity and fake tough guy and fake winning is everything public persona.
I know this opinion is ridiculed. There is nothing that can be said here in response that I haven't heard before. But every year, more and more, I slowly win over converts that will at least admit there appears to be some merit to what I've observed. Laugh all you want. Accuse me of trolling or being crazy or just trying to subvert the market for Trout's cards so I can buy some more cheaply, but there is clearly to me something observable in his makeup that he's lacking as far as mental toughness or clutchness or able to rise to the occasion. I'm not talking about the ability to be the best All-Star on a field of All-Stars in an exhibition. You can argue that point and I'd likely agree. But he wilts in the big moments that matter. You can quote WPA, or fall back on "small sample size", but I'll quote actual W's and retort that "life is nothing but a sample size of one". You either get it done or you don't. Soooo many other players do, Trout doesn't. Just ask yourself honestly, any signature moment in this current postseason, try to imagine the outcome if Trout was at the plate vs Altuve or Soto or Bregman or Rondon or Springer or... I can only imagine failure from Trout in that situation. That's gonna be his whole career, just watch. Big numbers when it doesn't matter, wasted and insignificant in the whole scheme of things.
I don't give Trout any slack, or accept any excuse, that the team that he plays for is the reason for his lack of signature moments. If George Brett, the 147th best third baseman of all time, can make himself into a Hall of Famer by putting a team on his back time after time after time after time and literally willing them to victory, then the "Greatest Player Since Babe Ruth" should be able to do it at least once, and then go out and do it again and again, also. That's all I'm saying.
@countdouglas
This is one of the worst teams I’ve ever seen:
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"fake tough guy" ?
You lost all credibility just by saying this. When has Mike Trout ever projected himself as a tough guy, fake or otherwise? Never.
I can't follow him either. If I'm starting a team, I want him ...as my top pick
No, the whole rant didn't quite rise to the level where it's even worth ridiculing.
In light of new information, I am switching my vote for AL MVP to the Houston Astros locker room garbage can located nearest to the dugout, narrowly beating out the Houston Astros laptop.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
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I change my vote to the relief pitcher for the Yanks who gave it all and pitched until his arm was ready to fall off!
I lost all respect for all hitters on Houston. It helps a BUNCH knowing what pitch is coming. Actually they all should have done better under the circumstances! What a bunch of CHEATERS!!!