Is grading from online pictures reliable??
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
Do you believe you can reliably grade/authenticate coins from online pictures??
Is grading from online pictures reliable??
This is a private poll: no-one will see what you voted for.
0
Comments
Doesn't it depend on the quality and resolution of the pic?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Photoshop/editing is all too common.
I'm not even sure how reliable grading in-hand is.....if it were, why would there be resubmissions, crackouts, cross overs, CAC, etc......
It is not reliable.... if it were, there would be no disagreements....even in hand, grading is an opinion (yes, guided by general categories, but an opinion, often disputed and frequently changed). Until standards are established, there will be no 100% reliable grading. Crack outs, re-submissions, continuous debate here and other forums...All evidence says that grading from pictures, or in hand, is not reliable. Cheers, RickO
Images helped put CAC in business.
No, all grading is subjective and subject to change. I just received a MS62 grade on what was sent in as a top pop MS67 NGC slabbed so-called dollar 1954 silver medal that I had purchased for my registry set. I still can't believe it, but the older medal finishes can be tricky if rarely seen by the graders.
Yes, of course I will send it back again for reconsideration, but a 5 grade point difference!, even between professional graders does happen.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Depending upon the coin and the quality of the images, sometimes meaningful grade assessments can be made.
It is far less likely in the case of proof coins, whose grades are usually determined by the extent of hairlines, which rarely show to their full extent in images. And ditto for coins with light cleaning, doctoring, etc.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Way too many variables to grade pics on Line.
WS
For circulated coins - yes. To determine ultimately if a coin has been cleaned, it is more difficult.
Sorry Goldminer!
I said Maybe
“Trying to be happy by accumulating possessions is like trying to satisfy hunger by taping sandwiches all over your body.” – George Carlin
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
considering Authentication and if a coin is Genuine, does your opinion or Poll answer change??
I have observed a gradual movement over the years which is strangely anti-proportional to the increase in technology development. in the past, with lower resolution monitors and lower pixel counts for pictures, there was a large number of members who believed with a high probability that they could correctly grade/authenticate from online pictures.
as time and technology has progressed, and it should be easier to decipher this riddle, more seem willing to admit that they cannot reliably grade a coin or authenticate it as genuine. recent events should teach us as much, but only if we are willing to learn and accept the facts that present themselves.
Depending upon the coin and the quality of the images, sometimes meaningful grade assessments can be made.
This, from MFeld above.....although for me personally, I might change 'assessments' to 'approximations'.
I would like to add that I chose to have the Poll anonymous so as to illicit a more honest reply from individuals. now, two things stand out: I am curious who among us answered "Yes" and am just as curious why nobody answered "I did at one time but now am not sure" as of yet.
Absolutely I can grade from a photo.
I do it every single day.
Unfortunately no, photos can hide things all too easily.
Collector, occasional seller
Voted "No"....
But that doesn't mean it isn't a useful exercise! Doing the visual and mental calculations, reading thoughts and comments from your fellow collectors, (whether more or less experienced), comparing to your own coins in hand....it all helps in becoming more comprehensive and consistent as a grader.
So many old gold coins look old and crusty in the close up and shiny in the slab shot. Hmmmm.
Some dealers photograph their coins in a consistent way that lends itself to accurate interpretation of the coin, once you’re accustomed to what you’re seeing.
As a photographer, I can easily shoot a coin in a way that hides hairlines and leaves little blemishes hidden in shadows. I assume less scrupulous people know those same tricks.
Overall, though, I vote no. You can get close, but holding and twirling a coin under a couple of different kinds of light always yields more information than a single photo.
Assuming the images are decent, you can probably grade a coin fairly accurately if it’s Poor-AU. Once it’s MS, it can be very hard to grade from images, since a picture can hide a lot (even if it’s a pretty decent picture).
@PerryHall said: "Doesn't it depend on the quality and resolution of the pic?"
Many in this thread have stated the obvious. Depends on the image. Look how far along auction catalogs have come from the "old" days.
I would have said, much of the time YES. But I did not vote because of "absolutely." Grading images (some good and some not so good) are in all the guides! Therefore, I think the best graders in the country would come within 3/4 of a point with an excellent image.
@Goldminers said: " No, all grading is subjective and subject to CHANGE."
First of all, CHANGE does not enter the equation. We are asked to grade a photo at this moment in time using the "standards" at this moment in time. Grading becomes less subjective as the knowledge of the grader increases. Nevertheless, I'll agree that without a "fixed, strict, Universal Standard" coupled with an untrained group of folks with their own ideas and method of examination - subjectivity will continue to rule!
@Goldminers continued: " I just received a MS62 grade on what was sent in as a top pop MS67 NGC slabbed so-called dollar 1954 silver medal that I had purchased for my registry set. I still can't believe it, but the older medal finishes can be tricky if rarely seen by the graders."
I don't know if this applies to your piece. I see this all the time. After they are struck, and a finish is applied, the piece is harshly wire-brushed! Big dilemma! The coin was RUINED "as made!" LOL. How should it be graded? One TPGS's thought 67 and the other thought 62. Otherwise, your piece is either cleaned or a little circulated to get a '62. Let's see an image!
@keets said: "I would like to add that I chose to have the Poll anonymous so as to illicit a more honest reply from individuals. now, two things stand out: I am curious who among us answered "Yes" [I would have if...see above] and am just as curious why nobody answered "I did at one time but now am not sure" as of yet."
And...I did not at one time but now I do. As digital images improved, it is getting easier.
Often, grade guesses and discussions based upon images end up leading to useful information about grading. And that's even if most or all of the guesses end up being "wrong". There is a lot to be learned from such exercises.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It depends on the pictures. Heritage's "assembly line" pictures are plentiful and consistent enough that you can learn to grade from them fairly well for most coins. Proofs are another story. Because of the nature of grading proofs, a single photo is almost always insufficient.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
And...I did not at one time but now I do. As digital images improved, it is getting easier.
re-reading the statement below, you may want to reassess your ability. just sayin'.
I hate to say this- really. The Hawaiian has picked up many of the diagnostics found on genuine pieces. This indicates it may be a much better fake than any of the crude JUNK sold on Ali Express such as that obvious "across-the-room" replica Lincoln 50c posted above. Hopefully for everyone, it will be genuine; but under the circumstances it's a long shot. Especially when examining the magnified image near the edge of the coin. "Nothing looks right."
OK, here are some images: The NGC photo is copyrighted so I can only provide the link to it. You can see a small speck by the left of 1754 to show it is the same medal and a top pop. It will zoom in close as well. NGC has graded 63 of these so they have seen them and know the original finish. Only 2 were 67's and I sent the NGC slab direct to PCGS to crack out for any grade to cross, so it was not cleaned or circulated since slabbed by NGC and then PCGS.
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4732805-005/67/
And the MS62 TrueView: https://images.pcgs.com/trueview/37103616 (so you can get zoom in digital hi-res photo).
And the "MS62" reverse in the slab with my returned NGC label
And if you want to see a different MS65 for reference, here you go: https://images.pcgs.com/trueview/37372640
So a picture is worth a thousand words, or several grades...
Note: the official documentation states these were minted with an "oxidized antique finish" and if the graders do not know that, they may think it is environmental or cleaning damage, when it is basically exactly as minted. An image or several images is not all that is required to reliably grade. The graders must have knowledge of the coin or medal and have actual experience with them to get things right.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
TrueViews are awesome!
They are a game changer.
Emphatically yes because my interests are condition & toning.
(CAC likes luster above all else so you can't use them that much to judge bean approval)
My Saint Set
Its very tough to grade or judge the mirrors of PL and DMPL Morgans most of them are tilted in a way which hides hairlines and hits.
delete I read the question wrong
No - there is no substitute for sight seen with adequate lighting.
I do buy online but seller must have good pics (both sides) and return policy.
The other day I was looking at a slew of listings that a seller had only had the obverse of the slab no reverse photos. I wondered if this guy is just stupid or what. I scrolled thru his until I came to another seller. I will not bid if I can’t see both sides of the item.
At a show take your time in viewing the item and be certain your not missing anything.
Reliably is the key modifier. No.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
The Chinese counterfeiters are laughing their butts off. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW
I don’t know where you got that idea about CAC, but that hasn’t been my experience. Nor have heard if from others.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
They might be, but decent images are usually adequate to identify such coins. Those who can’t tell from images, probably wouldn’t be able to tell in person, either. So the problem isn’t with images.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
True, it is not the images or even the coin in hand. In my experience, there are several types of people who play with coins in one way or the other. We can divide them into collectors and non-collectors. My guess is that 95% of them are completely ignorant when it comes to coin authentication. That leaves 5% of people who play with coins seriously. Let's call them numismatists although IMO most are not in the strictest definition. IMO, at least 70% of them are as bad at authentication as the first group. If I'm right, most people playing with coins in any way couldn't authenticate a coin from the best image! That's why the Chinese are laughing. They are picking the pockets of uninformed folks looking for bargains.
I hope you aren't going to defend this bean on condition.
And I don't see a whole lot of eye appeal on this 66 either.
Laura said "Extremely lustrous possessing a blazing golden glow with a bold vibrance throughout. In addition, there are brilliant, swirling cartwheels"
(Click pic to enlarge)
If it's true JA doesn't use a magnifier, perhaps he should start.
Can you tell me what he used to bump this one up?
I've got a bunch more examples and high quality pictures to prove it.
Like I said game changer.
Good luck pushing beans when people see what is being called an A-B coin.
My hope is PCGS stays doing what they are doing with the PLUS grades & isn't influenced by JA whatsoever.
I trust the + much more than the bean.
My Saint Set
You seem to be unhappy with your CAC submissions and that's your prerogative.
The coin you posted doesn't look particularly lustrous to me, though it appears attractive and highly original. I still disagree with your assertion that "CAC likes luster above all else..."
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Actually I'm thrilled that I relied more on pictures than beans.
Kinda the point of this thread
My Saint Set
Actually I'm thrilled that I relied more on pictures than beans.
Kinda the point of this thread
well, you couldn't have missed the target more if you were firing in the dark. the point of the thread is that judging coins based solely on internet pictures, no matter how good the quality, isn't reliable.
look, I know you have a disdain for Coin Shops, Coin Dealers and I assume Coin Shows along with a healthy dislike of all things CAC. that is your expressed prerogative and I won't argue with you about it. we each base purchases on what we feel comfortable with and form our collections along those lines. I fully expect your reply to be that you have bought everything based on images and I will state clearly that I have done so in with limitations. however, doing that with raw coins/medals involves risk that is eliminated by seeing things in-hand.
as others have said, images can mask problems while they highlight attributes.
to the point of luster, I think David Hall placed a premium on strong luster. I see know problem with that. brilliant or toned, strong luster equates to one thing --- a strong, well struck coin. lots of things can be manipulated on a coin's surface but there are two my experience teaches me that cannot be faked and luster is one of them.
@ReadyFireAim said: "Laura said "Extremely lustrous possessing a blazing golden glow with a bold vibrance throughout. In addition, there are brilliant, swirling cartwheels"
My 2c: I wish the coin were mine.
I AGREE with everything Ms. Laura said about this coin. Blazing luster and beautiful skin, Unfortunately, it's other characteristics (plus & minus) were NOT stated. She did not mention there is virtually no trace of "stacking rub" (a very unusual condition of these heavy coins) which IMO makes this coin more desirable. Another thing that was not addressed is the large number of marks (light & scattered all over the coin including its prime focal areas) on this truly MS DOUBLED DIE OBVERSE coin that does not have a "gem" surface. For this reason, the GTG opinions on this coin by members would have been like "buckshot!"
I answered "maybe" because of really only one fact that I've learned to appreciate and it has already been mentioned by @BryceM : "Some dealers photograph their coins in a consistent way that lends itself to accurate interpretation of the coin, once you’re accustomed to what you’re seeing."
When I see images by a trusted dealer I tend to feel more comfortable trusting my perceptions.
No, you cannot reliably/accurately grade from pics alone. You can however make educated assessments. Many of us purchase coins after viewing them from online auction photos, which may not show everything needed to make adequate judgment of grade.
My best advice is make sure the seller is reputable, and has a good return policy.
That's the short version anyway.
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
Is there ANY member in this discussion who believes THIS COIN cannot be graded using the excellent magnified images (it's just like looking under a stereo microscope set at 15X *) in the magnified PCGS photo?
If you can interpret my post, I just did (my grade not the TPGS).
*Don't do this at home.
LOL.
Long time bullion collector here but recently addicted to Morgans after a trip to Virginia City/Carson City this May. Let me answer the poll question with my recent experience. I am not looking for sympathy or empathy and probably don't deserve any. I've read on this forum that many have made and paid for their mistakes. So just add me to that distinguished list.
Please be patient as this story will unravel in three part harmony.
First - to remain anonymous, I won't list specifics. This was an ebay listing from a very reputable and well reviewed seller. This uncertified coin was listed with the title "1893-CC Morgan - Nice AU" and the BIN price was around $1K. These are the actual photos with the listing. What is everyone's opinion on the grade?
Obviously, that's not nearly the same thing as being able to tilt and rotate the coin under a good light.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
XFish, very cleaned.
XF details, cleaned
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Grading is easy, for everyone has an opinion, and they're all equally valid if coming from a peanut gallery with no stake in the matter.
it's fair and accurate pricing which leads to an equitable and mutually satisfactory transaction that's difficult.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Tip and Rotate! ALWAYS! However, in some cases (this is one) with an excellent image that can be zoomed up to the magnification of this one, any person who is accustomed to viewing a coin at very high powers of magnification can tell that this coin is not hairlined and the condition of its surface (the gold alloy) is totally original. There are some folks who might question the originality of its color. They can post if that is the case.
Despite its lovely color and highly original appearance, I would have graded it 65, at best, based on the images. But perhaps I would agree with the 66 grade if I were to see it in hand. That’s a potential three point variance, so the pictures might not tell the story.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.