@OldIndianNutKase said:
Still no disclosure of the "TPG" that slabbed the coins or the grade on that holder. You are wasting our time.
OINK
What difference does that make with respect to his question about one of the coins being deemed “Damaged” and trying to get better at identifying cleaned coins?
Simple........he is trying to vet a TPGS opinion (and hiding the slab sticker) who graded the coin in hand versus multiple opinions on this forum based upon very poor photos.
But if you ever bought such a coin and had to hide the graded label you might understand.
@Larrob37 said:
Pointless to mention this as anyone can call them selves a grading company. The tpg is uscg which is united states coin grading.
USCG is not eligible for crossover. That said doesn't seem right that you were charged grading fees for coins that were not eligible to cross in the first place
They didn't refuse to cross them based on the holder they were in. They rendered an opinion on them that they could not be holdered. They supplied the service they were contracted to provide: providing an opinion.
@Larrob37 said:
Pointless to mention this as anyone can call them selves a grading company. The tpg is uscg which is united states coin grading.
USCG is not eligible for crossover. That said doesn't seem right that you were charged grading fees for coins that were not eligible to cross in the first place
They didn't refuse to cross them based on the holder they were in. They rendered an opinion on them that they could not be holdered. They supplied the service they were contracted to provide: providing an opinion.
I was under the assumption they would only cross NGC, IGC, and ANACS? Maybe my assumption is wrong if so then they should be charged for details opinion.
@Larrob37 said:
Pointless to mention this as anyone can call them selves a grading company. The tpg is uscg which is united states coin grading.
USCG is not eligible for crossover. That said doesn't seem right that you were charged grading fees for coins that were not eligible to cross in the first place
They didn't refuse to cross them based on the holder they were in. They rendered an opinion on them that they could not be holdered. They supplied the service they were contracted to provide: providing an opinion.
I was under the assumption they would only cross NGC, IGC, and ANACS? Maybe my assumption is wrong if so then they should be charged for details opinion.
No. You are correct. But it looks like they just graded then as though they were raw. I don't know why they didn't detail grade them. But it is hardly PCGSs fault that they were sent ineligible slabs.
Perhaps we should read the terms for such an occurrence
@Larrob37 said:
Yes I see the gouges but I have seen a lot worse on coins that graded.
I am not an expert on these things but as I understand it a bag mark, for example, is acceptable but a scratch that is not "normal" wear and tear (even for an MS coin) is not acceptable.
@Larrob37 said:
Pointless to mention this as anyone can call them selves a grading company. The tpg is uscg which is united states coin grading.
USCG is not eligible for crossover. That said doesn't seem right that you were charged grading fees for coins that were not eligible to cross in the first place
They didn't refuse to cross them based on the holder they were in. They rendered an opinion on them that they could not be holdered. They supplied the service they were contracted to provide: providing an opinion.
I was under the assumption they would only cross NGC, IGC, and ANACS? Maybe my assumption is wrong if so then they should be charged for details opinion.
PCGS will also do crossover for ICCS certified coins. I suspect they do crossover for most anything, but the coin has to be eligible for PCGS certification for it to be placed into a PCGS holder. In this case, perhaps the option to certify genuine only was not chosen.
It's not clear from the photos whether the scratch on the cheek is bad enough to be considered "damage". You have the coin in hand. If there is nothing else that stands out then the scratch is the damage. Look close and don't forget the rim.
You are on the learning path, which is good. One thing I think you can take away from this is: Never, just never buy coins in "third world" holders. For all intents and purposes they are all junk. NGC and PCGS are fine, ANACS and ICG if you must.
I looked over there submission paperwork and does not mention which grading companies they will do cross over for. I am learning a lot in a short amount of time. Once lesson like you said is no more junk grading companies. I am not naïve enough to believe the grades on the less know grading companies. I did call guy I got these from and asked if his 6 year old was grading these coins. To the ones that are being harsh I am not hiding anything about these coins regardless of what you think. Some people are critics of everything and everyone. Its only coins people.
PCGS will "cross" any TPG holder- they want all the best coins in PCGS holders.
OP, it appears you have much to learn, fret not, it will come in time. You are right to want coins in PCGS holders, they are the most trusted of any third party grading service. For now, buy a few PCGS graded Morgans in MS63, MS64 and MS65 to get an idea of what a real problem free uncirculated coin should look like(1881-S would be a good option).
You are getting a dose of harsh reality, unfortunately there are some unscrupulous "companies" out there who will slap any grade on a coin and send it out the door. I'm betting your polished coins are "graded" MS65-66 on those hack job holders. The frustration you are receiving in some replies isn't necessarily all directed toward you, but at the cut-rate "grading companies" that cause these sort of issues, they prey on the new collector and it makes the whole hobby look bad. There are plenty of ebay sellers who do the same and I despise them for it.
@BillDugan1959 said:
The OP presents ZERO evidence that these coins have ever been in the hands of our hosts.
None, zero, nada, zilch, rien.
Is there a big problem of people going around lying about submitting coins and getting them bodybagged? To the point that we should start gathering and presenting evidence about our submissions before posting?
I think a local mentor of some sort would be very helpful. Whether that is a trustworthy dealer or veteran collector, it will be useful to have questions answered, get coins screened for obvious problems, be shown various examples, etc.
When you think about it...it really shouldn't matter who the original grading company is!
They charge the same for raw, or cross over. (Actually, charge a bit more for cross over, since there is a slight fee for it).
If the coin is GOOD, then raw or 3rd rate TPG shouldn't matter.
If it's BAD, then raw or 3rd rate TPG shouldn't matter.
What you DO get as a submitter for cross over, instead of raw, is a fall-back position of having the coin retain it's grade and holder, (which is sometimes good, sometimes meaningless).
As a submitter, you might want to think twice about some TPG services, and whether their grade means anything...But PCGS probably doesn't, and shouldn't, care.
@Larrob37 said:
Pointless to mention this as anyone can call them selves a grading company. The tpg is uscg which is united states coin grading.
USCG is not eligible for crossover. That said doesn't seem right that you were charged grading fees for coins that were not eligible to cross in the first place
They didn't refuse to cross them based on the holder they were in. They rendered an opinion on them that they could not be holdered. They supplied the service they were contracted to provide: providing an opinion.
I was under the assumption they would only cross NGC, IGC, and ANACS? Maybe my assumption is wrong if so then they should be charged for details opinion.
PCGS will also do crossover for ICCS certified coins. I suspect they do crossover for most anything, but the coin has to be eligible for PCGS certification for it to be placed into a PCGS holder. In this case, perhaps the option to certify genuine only was not chosen.
@Larrob37 ... Those are tough and expensive lessons to learn right out of the gate. If you are serious about wanting to learn more about collecting (including grading), I recommend taking it a bit slower. Since you like Morgan dollars, start by looking at as many PCGS-graded Morgan dollars as you can. Go to coin shows, auctions, coin clubs, local dealers, etc. When possible, ask knowledgeable dealers and collectors about why the coins have the assigned grade. Examine "Not Gradable" coins as well. Understand that not all coin dealers or collectors know how to explain grading. They can read a TPG label, but explaining why is elusive.
Until you get comfortable, buy PCGS-graded Morgan dollars and study those coins. It's extraordinarily rare when a new collectors finds true gem coins in "off brand" TPG holders or raw (no TPG holder). Many of these "off brand" TPGs exist on the ignorance and greed of people wanting to make a killing. That's meant as an insult to you, just an observation over many years.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Don’t get frustrated some people can be harsh we have had a lot of trolls lately but sometimes it’s a bitter pill to swallow when you pay good money or any money for problem coins. I just got one back questionable color it’s a risk you take with raw or questionably graded coins that you send to PCGS they can be a tough bunch sometimes 😉
While they'll cross any coin in any holder, if it qualifies, they won't cross a coin into a PCGS details holder unless you specifically say "treat as raw," or something to that effect. You're better off cracking them out yourself, though, to avoid the crossover tax.
@astrorat said: @Larrob37 ... Those are tough and expensive lessons to learn right out of the gate. If you are serious about wanting to learn more about collecting (including grading), I recommend taking it a bit slower. Since you like Morgan dollars, start by looking at as many PCGS-graded Morgan dollars as you can. Go to coin shows, auctions, coin clubs, local dealers, etc. When possible, ask knowledgeable dealers and collectors about why the coins have the assigned grade. Examine "Not Gradable" coins as well. Understand that not all coin dealers or collectors know how to explain grading. They can read a TPG label, but explaining why is elusive.
Until you get comfortable, buy PCGS-graded Morgan dollars and study those coins. It's extraordinarily rare when a new collectors finds true gem coins in "off brand" TPG holders or raw (no TPG holder). Many of these "off brand" TPGs exist on the ignorance and greed of people wanting to make a killing. That's meant as an insult to you, just an observation over many years.
There is a "not" screaming to be inserted into your post!
I know I put myself out there by posting those pictures but I was trying to use them as a learning tool for newbes. I have strong shoulders and can take any ridicule if I learn from it. I will not be buying anymore unslabbed and they will be pcgs.
I am more upset about the fact that I submitted these coins without recognizing their defects. so obvious after the fact. Its a hobby that I didn't recognize had so many pitfalls but not discouraged. I will be doing less buying and more studying. Thanks to everyone for their help and comments. You guys seem pretty helpful with a couple exceptions.
I don't know if it's already been mentioned (too lazy to go back and read all the prior posts) but if you can, previewing auction lots is a good way to see a lot of coins. Most major shows offer this opportunity.
Masong that's a good point. I think some of the auction sites and ebay take a lot of deceiving pictures. not even sure I can trust ones slabbed by pcgs If people want to fool you they will figure out a way.
I mean going to shows and actually holding the coins in your hands. You have to see the coins in person, you can't learn grading properly by viewing internet images.
exactly my plan. Impossible for me to judge a coin over the net. We just have very few shows around here. Most dealers around here work from house. A few coin collecting groups but all on Saturday. I work saturday. So I will have to seek out other opportunities to look at coins.
Comments
Simple........he is trying to vet a TPGS opinion (and hiding the slab sticker) who graded the coin in hand versus multiple opinions on this forum based upon very poor photos.
But if you ever bought such a coin and had to hide the graded label you might understand.
OINK
They didn't refuse to cross them based on the holder they were in. They rendered an opinion on them that they could not be holdered. They supplied the service they were contracted to provide: providing an opinion.
I was under the assumption they would only cross NGC, IGC, and ANACS? Maybe my assumption is wrong if so then they should be charged for details opinion.
No. You are correct. But it looks like they just graded then as though they were raw. I don't know why they didn't detail grade them. But it is hardly PCGSs fault that they were sent ineligible slabs.
Perhaps we should read the terms for such an occurrence
I am not an expert on these things but as I understand it a bag mark, for example, is acceptable but a scratch that is not "normal" wear and tear (even for an MS coin) is not acceptable.
PCGS will also do crossover for ICCS certified coins. I suspect they do crossover for most anything, but the coin has to be eligible for PCGS certification for it to be placed into a PCGS holder. In this case, perhaps the option to certify genuine only was not chosen.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
It's not clear from the photos whether the scratch on the cheek is bad enough to be considered "damage". You have the coin in hand. If there is nothing else that stands out then the scratch is the damage. Look close and don't forget the rim.
You are on the learning path, which is good. One thing I think you can take away from this is: Never, just never buy coins in "third world" holders. For all intents and purposes they are all junk. NGC and PCGS are fine, ANACS and ICG if you must.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
I looked over there submission paperwork and does not mention which grading companies they will do cross over for. I am learning a lot in a short amount of time. Once lesson like you said is no more junk grading companies. I am not naïve enough to believe the grades on the less know grading companies. I did call guy I got these from and asked if his 6 year old was grading these coins. To the ones that are being harsh I am not hiding anything about these coins regardless of what you think. Some people are critics of everything and everyone. Its only coins people.
PCGS will "cross" any TPG holder- they want all the best coins in PCGS holders.
OP, it appears you have much to learn, fret not, it will come in time. You are right to want coins in PCGS holders, they are the most trusted of any third party grading service. For now, buy a few PCGS graded Morgans in MS63, MS64 and MS65 to get an idea of what a real problem free uncirculated coin should look like(1881-S would be a good option).
You are getting a dose of harsh reality, unfortunately there are some unscrupulous "companies" out there who will slap any grade on a coin and send it out the door. I'm betting your polished coins are "graded" MS65-66 on those hack job holders. The frustration you are receiving in some replies isn't necessarily all directed toward you, but at the cut-rate "grading companies" that cause these sort of issues, they prey on the new collector and it makes the whole hobby look bad. There are plenty of ebay sellers who do the same and I despise them for it.
Collector, occasional seller
Not everyone who claims to be a grading company is a reputable grading company. Learn which ones you can count on.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Is there a big problem of people going around lying about submitting coins and getting them bodybagged? To the point that we should start gathering and presenting evidence about our submissions before posting?
I think a local mentor of some sort would be very helpful. Whether that is a trustworthy dealer or veteran collector, it will be useful to have questions answered, get coins screened for obvious problems, be shown various examples, etc.
When you think about it...it really shouldn't matter who the original grading company is!
They charge the same for raw, or cross over. (Actually, charge a bit more for cross over, since there is a slight fee for it).
If the coin is GOOD, then raw or 3rd rate TPG shouldn't matter.
If it's BAD, then raw or 3rd rate TPG shouldn't matter.
What you DO get as a submitter for cross over, instead of raw, is a fall-back position of having the coin retain it's grade and holder, (which is sometimes good, sometimes meaningless).
As a submitter, you might want to think twice about some TPG services, and whether their grade means anything...But PCGS probably doesn't, and shouldn't, care.
In my experience they will cross any holder
Latin American Collection
@Larrob37 ... Those are tough and expensive lessons to learn right out of the gate. If you are serious about wanting to learn more about collecting (including grading), I recommend taking it a bit slower. Since you like Morgan dollars, start by looking at as many PCGS-graded Morgan dollars as you can. Go to coin shows, auctions, coin clubs, local dealers, etc. When possible, ask knowledgeable dealers and collectors about why the coins have the assigned grade. Examine "Not Gradable" coins as well. Understand that not all coin dealers or collectors know how to explain grading. They can read a TPG label, but explaining why is elusive.
Until you get comfortable, buy PCGS-graded Morgan dollars and study those coins. It's extraordinarily rare when a new collectors finds true gem coins in "off brand" TPG holders or raw (no TPG holder). Many of these "off brand" TPGs exist on the ignorance and greed of people wanting to make a killing. That's meant as an insult to you, just an observation over many years.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Don’t get frustrated some people can be harsh we have had a lot of trolls lately but sometimes it’s a bitter pill to swallow when you pay good money or any money for problem coins. I just got one back questionable color it’s a risk you take with raw or questionably graded coins that you send to PCGS they can be a tough bunch sometimes 😉
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
While they'll cross any coin in any holder, if it qualifies, they won't cross a coin into a PCGS details holder unless you specifically say "treat as raw," or something to that effect. You're better off cracking them out yourself, though, to avoid the crossover tax.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
There is a "not" screaming to be inserted into your post!
Smitten with DBLCs.
I know I put myself out there by posting those pictures but I was trying to use them as a learning tool for newbes. I have strong shoulders and can take any ridicule if I learn from it. I will not be buying anymore unslabbed and they will be pcgs.
I am more upset about the fact that I submitted these coins without recognizing their defects. so obvious after the fact. Its a hobby that I didn't recognize had so many pitfalls but not discouraged. I will be doing less buying and more studying. Thanks to everyone for their help and comments. You guys seem pretty helpful with a couple exceptions.
I did not know about the treat as raw thing. I will be breaking mine out form now on. I seem to have better luck.
I don't know if it's already been mentioned (too lazy to go back and read all the prior posts) but if you can, previewing auction lots is a good way to see a lot of coins. Most major shows offer this opportunity.
Masong that's a good point. I think some of the auction sites and ebay take a lot of deceiving pictures. not even sure I can trust ones slabbed by pcgs If people want to fool you they will figure out a way.
I mean going to shows and actually holding the coins in your hands. You have to see the coins in person, you can't learn grading properly by viewing internet images.
exactly my plan. Impossible for me to judge a coin over the net. We just have very few shows around here. Most dealers around here work from house. A few coin collecting groups but all on Saturday. I work saturday. So I will have to seek out other opportunities to look at coins.