1878-CC Trade $1 in TPG holder on Ebay, holed and plugged
mbogoman
Posts: 5,253 ✭✭✭✭✭
In case anyone was thinking about bidding on this one - beware. Although the grader caught the obvious cleaning, I believe he missed the bigger issue. IMO, it has been holed and plugged. Look at the denticles above Liberty's head as well as the top of her head - funkiness abounds. Also look on the reverse under the "D" - the denticles have been tooled and the "D" itself looks a bit wonky.
**Edited to remove TPG name. Never intended to bash anyone, just to highlight the coin's issues that were not specified on the label.
mbogoman
Asesabi Lutho
7
Comments
spot on.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
See if you can get the #'s off the slab. It does look plugged. I'll guarantee I never saw that coin!
Slab # 7736222601
@mbogoman Good catch!
THIS IS A VERY DECEIVING POST
IMO, the OP should rewrite it immediately. Otherwise, the moderators should remove it. Hopefully, the OP will make the NECESSARY changes so folks can still learn something useful from his post - identifying a repair.
No one at IGC missed ANYTHING about his coin. The coin was sent in for:
GENUINE ONLY service.
The label indicates as much. No qualifiers are identified on "Genuine Only" labels! The SELLER described the coin as AU Details, old cleaning.
Valid complaint.
I checked the ebay post itself, and it is definitely slabbed as "Genuine"
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1878-CC-Trade-Silver-Dollar-ICG-Genuine-AU55-Details-Old-cleaning-PTMZHF/163843357294?hash=item2625d33a6e:g:qUEAAOSwmZFdbBJa
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Good for you to speak up and set the record straight
Slab says "Genuine" with no reason why. Seller may have only noticed the cleaning.
@Insider2 has a point but I think the OP's post was more intended to warn a buyer rather than bash IGC.
IGC may have noticed the hole/plug but it was submitted as genuine service only.
Unless you know that the seller knows the coin has been plugged, I think it’s inappropriate and libelous to accuse him of fraud.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
well Mark, the seller added this which ICG did not ->
AU55 Details Old cleaning
Fine- ill say it this way: adding a grade when a professional grading company omitted one due to problems with the coin is >>misleading<< and possibly a violation of ebay policy.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
It is a better hole repair that could go unnoticed to many. It is a great learning coin for folks here. Thanks to the OP for posting.
.
If we could get edits on mentions of grading company & seller removed this thread might survive.
...uh ohh...this certainly wouldn’t be good under the requested service level, if true...hopefully @Insider2 goes for a midnight snack tonight at some point and checks in
For all we know, he is giving his honest opinion regarding the details-grade of the coin. That would be a far cry from fraud.
Contrast that with an infamous seller, who routinely cracks coins out of details-grade holders, lists them as problem-free and lies about their origin. I am comfortable in labeling that, “fraud”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Good catch on the repair, certainly could escape most reviews....Cheers, RickO
please explain what makes you say this is counterfeit.
Thank you
For those of you who believe the coin has been plugged, how confident are you?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Somehow, the crown/hat turned into a fuller head of hair. If not plugged, at least tooled.
The upper obverse stars seem doubled and the rarer CC to the right.
Based on the photos provided I am quite confident it is a hole repair, it would be nice to have the coin in hand or better close-up photos of the area in question. I also think the coin is genuine.
MFeld , Congrats on your 1000th post! WooooHoooo!
Thank you. I also believe that the coin is genuine and am not confident that it’s been plugged, based just on the photos.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I would say 99.9% sure. Of course, I'd love to see it in hand but that ain't going to happen. Look at the area in question in the pic below. I played with the lighting and contrast a bit - the color of the "hole" area appears lighter than the surrounding metal. Liberty's head has been increased on top, and the tiara is way more pointed than normal. Also, the fact that the denticles on the reverse immediately opposite of the denticles on the obverse are mis-shapen/tooled is the clincher. JMHO...
Edit to add: I do believe it is genuine
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
Thank you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This would be a great one to do an overlay with to see if the tiara,hair, and DO in dollar are misshaped.
I'm not sure if it is plugged....could be repaired from a Mount Removal.
This is my take from the pictures. I know the seller and will send him a link to this thread.
@MFeld said: "I also believe that the coin is genuine and am not confident that it’s been plugged, based just on the photos."
Most repairs to a coin can usually be detected by three things:
The OP's coin has all three. Viewing the coin using florescent light and 5X -7X magnification is often sufficient for examination. Otherwise, a good repair will be more difficult to detect. You also need to be looking for problems in the first place or an excellent "repair job" may be missed - even by a professional.
She does seem to wearing a hat.
Too early in the morning to look up.
Does the mm come that far right?
Never mind. The coin facts pic has that mm position.
I blinked twice and then considered the possibility of a "King Tut Potty Dollar". That tiara point and head shape are "discordant"
The problem was impossible, and yet the "solution" might have gotten past me on a day when color and surface texture convinced me so quickly at arms-length it wouldn't take color that the design distortion was not yet in focus range and was not, accordingly, an issue.
Fraud over "AU55 details"? @MFeld's comment on libel is a legal warning about your sense of proportion. Even a canary in a coal mine will concede that farts are not chemical warfare,
I also agree with you that @MrEureka paid way too much for that Choo-Choo Potty Dollar,
So I was astounded, but not surprised, that he sold it to Warren Buffet for big bucks. Seems he recalled Mr. Buffett remarking a few years ago about his various purchases of railroads having had something to do with Warren's dad never buying him a train set when he was a kid.
I concede that it is also possible that it was a repair after a mount removal. Again, in hand it would certainly be more clear. The first thing that caught my eye was the grotesque head and pointed tiara. It stuck out like a bad toupee and caused me to go searching for more issues.
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
Looks like it has been removed from ebay.
Looks like my message helped. I'm certain he would not knowingly hide an issue like this!
I hope we don't start calling fraud on folks that put a number grade by a coin that has been labeled Genuine.
If you take that logic one step further, is it fraud if you have a 2 x 2 and label a VF+ coin XF???? If so, I think almost every 2 x 2 I see the dealer or collector would be committing fraud.
Fraud is knowingly misrepresenting something. Opinions, which grading is, is not knowingly misrepresenting something, unless of course it's totally obvious and in this case it is clearly not.
Personally, I would be very very careful using that term.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
WOW, this must be a first......an Ebay seller not correctly describing the coin and violating ebay rules...
Whooooo hooooo
bob
Fair enough.
I still think it was misleading at best to keep the post up after I talked to him about it. Not until he got secondary critical feedback on it did he remove the post.
It most likely was a case of judgement. I will concede the point that the term fraud specifically refers to intention, which certainly appears not to be the case in this instance.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
It’s not a matter of being politically correct. It’s about being fair and prudent.
In this case, we don’t know about the “intended” part of the definition you quoted. It would be different if we knew the coin had been cracked out of a details-grade “plugged” holder and offered as problem-free.
I happen to believe that if the coin has been plugged, the seller was unaware of it. Have you looked at his other listings? They don’t strike me as being from a seller who engages in fraud.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
They are not! To give you an idea of what kindda guy the owner is. He took everyone who wanted to go(Dealers and Club Members) from the Augusta,Ga. Coin show a few years back to a nice steak house and paid for drinks and all! Believe me...his coin shop is his hobby and enjoyment...not his bread and butter!
The coin is a genuine 1878-CC Trade dollar SO...
1.) Would any opinions change if the seller - a coin dealer, would have listed the coin simply as a genuine 1878-CC Trade dollar.
2.) Would opinions change if Joe Nobody listed the coin as a genuine 1878-CC Trade dollar?
3.) Since the coin is a genuine 1878-CC Trade dollar, does it matter if the seller knew or didn't know the coin had problems that would prevent it from being straight graded?
With respect to question 3, above - If a seller thinks or knows that a “genuine” details coin has been plugged, doesn’t make note of that in his description, but does describe the coin as “cleaned”, it does matter. Mentioning one problem, but intentionally ignoring a much worse one, is misleading.
Please note, as I mentioned in a previous post, if the subject coin of this thread has been plugged, I do not think the seller was aware of it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said: "With respect to question 3, above - If a seller thinks or knows that a “genuine” details coin has been plugged, doesn’t make note of that in his description, but does describe the coin as “cleaned”, it does matter. Mentioning one problem, but intentionally ignoring a much worse one, is misleading.
In my experience, this happens in the entire industry more than most would think.
Of course, the "seriousness of a problem" has become subjective these days.
I would not be okay with point 3.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Hmmm...I can't tell you how many Barber Halves I have sold that our host undergraded(and a few overgraded). I list the coin in the holder...give my opinion on the grade, price it according to my...yes my guide, and they sell! I'm not sending a F-VF Barber Half in again on my dime if they get it wrong IMHO!
Would you sell this coin as a VG10?
