@tradedollarnut said:
If you notice the trend, it makes sense. He won’t ‘overpay’ for great coins - only for a multitude of lesser ones (merc dimes, for example). You and I know that you ALWAYS have to ‘overpay’ and the great coins are never cheap. He doesn’t have the experience to understand that some 1804 dollars are worse than others ...or that spending $1M for the best is better than $300k for something tooled. He sees it as throwing Hedgie’s price back in his face.
In the long run, who is to say which strategy is best. He won’t get some great coins but he won’t have to ‘overpay’ for them.
Bruce, while I agree with the point you are conveying, I should also note.. If I were Hansen, I probably wouldn't have to overpay for anything. Buying a $100M isn't overpaying, because I've got another billion dollars laying around. It's a matter of perspective though.
I believe not buying the Gerry's 1913 V Nickel at the ANA 2 years ago for $4M was a huge mistake. It's the finest known, and a huge rarity. Instead he bought the 1854-S Half Eagle in a partnership. It's a coin he needs today, yet sold it for a profit immediately after! He passes on the 1827/3 Quarter, which he also needs. To finish it off, he pays five figures for an FB 1974 Roosevelt Dime, validating your point that he is "overpaying" for smaller coins.
Interesting though that he re-holders/TrueViews them even if they are hole fillers.
Presumably, they all have the custom gold eagle slabs???
I've seen a couple for sale but not many.
The big stories are nothing but good for the overall hobby..
The treasure finds, the record prices, the history-making collections, all the news and discussions about coins in the popular media can make it interesting for we long time numismatists, and bring in more new collectors every day.
It's all good, when we focus on the coins themselves, and try not to take it personally..
@Traz said:
I am selling the number two finest colllection of shield and liberty nickel proofs because of this. I’ve lost interest because Gerry and Hansen have acquired top pops I know I won’t be able to buy. Chasing the top pop nickels cost me badly.
Going to buy another super car or buy some quality old gold or proof gold.
But yes some of the quality coins he has makes a difference but sorry he has a lot of non quality items and like private collector says it’s strange he’s passed on some really nice stuff. Makes no sense.
While it might not make sense to you and some others, presumably, it does to him. He has his own collecting priorities and pursues them as he sees fit.
How do you know ?
It’s my guess, based on his purchases, as well as his passes. It does seem obvious that he doesn’t have a need to own a number of coins which some collectors think he should own. Likewise, he’s apparently OK buying other coins (such as the 1933 $10j which some collectors would refuse to own.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think any collector who would "on principle" refuse to own that 1933 eagle, even at melt or at Good price guide cost, is an outlier. It's a beautiful coin with some imperfections. Show us a better looking 1933 eagle in "problem free" MS 63 or lower!
@tradedollarnut said:
It takes time to become a connoisseur...it think it was rather telling when they said the reason for buying the tooled coin was a great one wasn’t available (at a good price) for two years. Pffft
You and I have been at this at an elevated level for near three decades. We have the experience to understand that quality outweighs price - as does opportunity
You don’t have to buy million dollar coins to understand this or get to this point as a collector. Well said.
If Mr. Hansen ends up the winning bidder every time a major rarity crosses the auction block, either to fill a hole or to improve a lesser coin, he becomes predictable and is almost certainly going to pay an "overpaid" price. To be unpredictable in his purchases makes sense from a financial point of view, but it dampens an otherwise remarkable collection and achievement, at least for now.
As for the impact, in the series I am now collecting, he is certainly the overall registry leader but there are plenty of better coins out there (though not necessarily available).
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
It’s probably easier to negotiate for a coin when it would just be an “upgrade” to something already in the set. It keeps him from being held hostage by the guys with the best stuff, but it mean potentially missing out on something that then disappears for 30 years or more.
This set is numismatic history in the making, and we're all in the auditorium. Some are ringside and are or have trained fighters of their own, but everyone reading this will some day be able to say, "I was there when Hansen.."
@ReadyFireAim said:
Interesting though that he re-holders/TrueViews them even if they are hole fillers.
Presumably, they all have the custom gold eagle slabs???
I've seen a couple for sale but not many.
A lot of people cross from ATS to PCGS to get coins into the same holder for consistency. This seems to be the next level. I wonder if he'll ever change his insert
Of note, this particular one doesn't have a TrueView:
@tradedollarnut said:
If you notice the trend, it makes sense. He won’t ‘overpay’ for great coins - only for a multitude of lesser ones (merc dimes, for example). You and I know that you ALWAYS have to ‘overpay’ and the great coins are never cheap. He doesn’t have the experience to understand that some 1804 dollars are worse than others ...or that spending $1M for the best is better than $300k for something tooled. He sees it as throwing Hedgie’s price back in his face.
In the long run, who is to say which strategy is best. He won’t get some great coins but he won’t have to ‘overpay’ for them.
Is there something going on between Hansen and Hedgie?
What is unique about Hansen's collection is it literally touches every series of coins. From old gold to modern coins to copper to proof and on and on. Further, he is collecting all dates so his collection impacts key dates, semi keys, high grade common type coins and mint collecting (i.e Dahlongea, etc). In general, Hansen has tried to obtain concensus condition coins. I will loosely define that as top 5 for the date.
So one direct impact that I think we will see is about a 20% decrease immediately in the availability for a condition census coin in almost any date and series. Now in most series there is another dedicated collector who has condition census coins for his series (i.e for liberty quarter eagles it would be the Kansas Collection). Assuming those collectors continue to hold their coins that means about 40% decrease in those condition census coins potentially available (and if there are two collectors who are building top collections which is probably the case more than not than 60% decrease in availability).
Using your own example of gold $2.50s this decrease in condition census coins is only happening in the dates and series that Hansen and his people deem important. For example Hansen has had two opportunities to improve on his 1845-O $2.50 AU55 (non CAC) which is the rarest quarter eagle from New Orleans and which is also a date that has a neat backstory.
He could have purchased your PCGS/CAC AU58 from the Kentucky Collection at a fixed price (no concern about being bid up in an auction).
He could also have purchased the newly discovered MS61 which DW sold to the Kansas Collection.
The Condition Census list for this date is as follows:
PCGS MS63: Private collection via Douglas Winter Numismatics, 1999, ex 1987 ANA: 538, Bowers and Merena 11/1983: 110, Virgil Brand Collection.
PCGS/CAC MS61 (also NGC MS62): Kansas Collection, ex Douglas Winter Numismatics, 2018, Southern dealer.
PCGS MS61: New England Collection via Douglas Winter Numismatics, 2012, ex Heritage 2/12: 4636.
My quick thought, which is kind of negative, is that I thought rare coins were supposed to be, you know, rare? Technology has made rare easy to find and buy with piles of cash. PCGS has removed a lot of the risk that was around decades ago.
Coins have been documented so well that an actual estimate of time and money can be placed on such a huge set with accurate caveats.
I guess I am jaded now days. I find more joy about a person here getting a good rip at a show or ebay then buying top pop coins at auction or privately. It reminds me of simpler times and the excitement of the hunt.
@fc said:
My quick thought, which is kind of negative, is that I thought rare coins were supposed to be, you know, rare? Technology has made rare easy to find and buy with piles of cash. PCGS has removed a lot of the risk that was around decades ago.
Coins have been documented so well that an actual estimate of time and money can be placed on such a huge set with accurate caveats.
I guess I am jaded now days. I find more joy about a person here getting a good rip at a show or ebay then buying top pop coins at auction or privately. It reminds me of simpler times and the excitement of the hunt.
Check out the world of tokens for a different form of rarity and collecting. I just picked up a R8 Civil War Token for less than $1000. R8 means 5 to 10 but I’ve only seen 2, both in older holders. No real need to update the holder as there isn’t even Registry competition for tokens. BTW, I have both specimens I’ve seen of this issue now. Of course, demand is lower which leads to a less mature market and different style of collecting.
@fc said:
My quick thought, which is kind of negative, is that I thought rare coins were supposed to be, you know, rare? Technology has made rare easy to find and buy with piles of cash. PCGS has removed a lot of the risk that was around decades ago.
Coins have been documented so well that an actual estimate of time and money can be placed on such a huge set with accurate caveats.
I guess I am jaded now days. I find more joy about a person here getting a good rip at a show or ebay then buying top pop coins at auction or privately. It reminds me of simpler times and the excitement of the hunt.
Check out the world of tokens for a different form of rarity and collecting. I just picked up a R8 Civil War Token for less than $1000. R8 means 5 to 10 but I’ve only seen 2, both in older holders. No real need to update the holder as there isn’t even Registry competition for tokens. BTW, I have both specimens I’ve seen of this issue now. Of course, demand is lower which leads to a less mature market and different style of collecting.
@fc said:
My quick thought, which is kind of negative, is that I thought rare coins were supposed to be, you know, rare? Technology has made rare easy to find and buy with piles of cash. PCGS has removed a lot of the risk that was around decades ago.
Coins have been documented so well that an actual estimate of time and money can be placed on such a huge set with accurate caveats.
I guess I am jaded now days. I find more joy about a person here getting a good rip at a show or ebay then buying top pop coins at auction or privately. It reminds me of simpler times and the excitement of the hunt.
Check out the world of tokens for a different form of rarity and collecting. I just picked up a R8 Civil War Token for less than $1000. R8 means 5 to 10 but I’ve only seen 2, both in older holders. No real need to update the holder as there isn’t even Registry competition for tokens. BTW, I have both specimens I’ve seen of this issue now. Of course, demand is lower which leads to a less mature market and different style of collecting.
Or try medals, or.....
Agreed. Basically, anywhere without Registry Set competition will have a much different way of collecting.
Not that one is better than the other. They both have advantages and disadvantages.
One advantage of having Registry Sets is you can get a PCGS pedigree if you compete well. Without them, ATS is the primary option.
I think everyone that enjoys and collects coins make an impact to the hobby (or business). The question is to what level or degree. I can never make the impact that Mr. Hansen can. But a thousand of me(s) may be able to get close. What I am trying to say is that the hobby needs everyone, and the more the better, certainly including Mr. Hansen.
If there is a thought out there that The Hansen Collection is “cutting everyone out of the collecting opportunity”, then I think that is not entirely true. Is he dominating some series and sets, sure is he is. Is he dominating everything, no. Bruce showed us an example where you can really enjoy the hobby in a “Hansen World”, if that is what you want to call it. It is amazing to see Bruce build a great 25 piece set in an area where it appear Mr. Hansen is not presently focused on. There are opportunities.
Lastly, let me share some numbers that I hope can add a little more perspective. I believe Mr. Hansen’s core set that he is focused on is the 2821 piece registry set U.S. COINS COMPLETE BASIC SET, CIRCULATION STRIKES (1792-1964). JB has told us this on several occasions. They have only 6 coins left, but they are also upgrading aggressively. For this set alone mathematically, there are 14,105 possible PCGS certified Condition Census Top 5 coins. With ties, non-PCGS grades, etc., the number is not precise, but there is the possibility. According to my numbers, Hansen Collection has 1,021 solid PCGS certified Top 5 coins (Only 7.2% of all possible Top 5 coins). This is not counting ties for Top 5, rather PCGS grades with POPs from 1/0 to 4/1. As large as this number is, there are over 13,000 Top 5 coins that other collectors own, including Mr. Hansen have some of them that are considered duplicates. IF... there were others that wanted to take the challenge that Mr. Hansen is doing, and strive to contend with him, this set alone could absorb 13 more billionaires. Now, Mr. Hansen has a head start, I don’t see him slowing down on upgrades anytime soon. But mathematically, even if The Hansen Collection assemblies 100% top five specimens, there is room for four others to have Condition Census Top 5 sets.
The point is, there are still a lot of great coins available. Who will be the next D. L. Hansen?
Comments
Bruce, while I agree with the point you are conveying, I should also note.. If I were Hansen, I probably wouldn't have to overpay for anything. Buying a $100M isn't overpaying, because I've got another billion dollars laying around. It's a matter of perspective though.
I believe not buying the Gerry's 1913 V Nickel at the ANA 2 years ago for $4M was a huge mistake. It's the finest known, and a huge rarity. Instead he bought the 1854-S Half Eagle in a partnership. It's a coin he needs today, yet sold it for a profit immediately after! He passes on the 1827/3 Quarter, which he also needs. To finish it off, he pays five figures for an FB 1974 Roosevelt Dime, validating your point that he is "overpaying" for smaller coins.
Interesting though that he re-holders/TrueViews them even if they are hole fillers.
Presumably, they all have the custom gold eagle slabs???
I've seen a couple for sale but not many.
My Saint Set
The big stories are nothing but good for the overall hobby..
The treasure finds, the record prices, the history-making collections, all the news and discussions about coins in the popular media can make it interesting for we long time numismatists, and bring in more new collectors every day.
It's all good, when we focus on the coins themselves, and try not to take it personally..
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
It’s my guess, based on his purchases, as well as his passes. It does seem obvious that he doesn’t have a need to own a number of coins which some collectors think he should own. Likewise, he’s apparently OK buying other coins (such as the 1933 $10j which some collectors would refuse to own.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think any collector who would "on principle" refuse to own that 1933 eagle, even at melt or at Good price guide cost, is an outlier. It's a beautiful coin with some imperfections. Show us a better looking 1933 eagle in "problem free" MS 63 or lower!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
You don’t have to buy million dollar coins to understand this or get to this point as a collector. Well said.
If Mr. Hansen ends up the winning bidder every time a major rarity crosses the auction block, either to fill a hole or to improve a lesser coin, he becomes predictable and is almost certainly going to pay an "overpaid" price. To be unpredictable in his purchases makes sense from a financial point of view, but it dampens an otherwise remarkable collection and achievement, at least for now.
As for the impact, in the series I am now collecting, he is certainly the overall registry leader but there are plenty of better coins out there (though not necessarily available).
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
You make a good point @breakdown.
It’s probably easier to negotiate for a coin when it would just be an “upgrade” to something already in the set. It keeps him from being held hostage by the guys with the best stuff, but it mean potentially missing out on something that then disappears for 30 years or more.
30 years is a very long time.
This set is numismatic history in the making, and we're all in the auditorium. Some are ringside and are or have trained fighters of their own, but everyone reading this will some day be able to say, "I was there when Hansen.."
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
A lot of people cross from ATS to PCGS to get coins into the same holder for consistency. This seems to be the next level. I wonder if he'll ever change his insert
Of note, this particular one doesn't have a TrueView:
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/26415102
Is there something going on between Hansen and Hedgie?
>
Using your own example of gold $2.50s this decrease in condition census coins is only happening in the dates and series that Hansen and his people deem important. For example Hansen has had two opportunities to improve on his 1845-O $2.50 AU55 (non CAC) which is the rarest quarter eagle from New Orleans and which is also a date that has a neat backstory.
He could have purchased your PCGS/CAC AU58 from the Kentucky Collection at a fixed price (no concern about being bid up in an auction).
He could also have purchased the newly discovered MS61 which DW sold to the Kansas Collection.
The Condition Census list for this date is as follows:
PCGS MS63: Private collection via Douglas Winter Numismatics, 1999, ex 1987 ANA: 538, Bowers and Merena 11/1983: 110, Virgil Brand Collection.
PCGS/CAC MS61 (also NGC MS62): Kansas Collection, ex Douglas Winter Numismatics, 2018, Southern dealer.
PCGS MS61: New England Collection via Douglas Winter Numismatics, 2012, ex Heritage 2/12: 4636.
NGC MS60: Kansas Collection, duplicate.
My quick thought, which is kind of negative, is that I thought rare coins were supposed to be, you know, rare? Technology has made rare easy to find and buy with piles of cash. PCGS has removed a lot of the risk that was around decades ago.
Coins have been documented so well that an actual estimate of time and money can be placed on such a huge set with accurate caveats.
I guess I am jaded now days. I find more joy about a person here getting a good rip at a show or ebay then buying top pop coins at auction or privately. It reminds me of simpler times and the excitement of the hunt.
Dell loy will more frequently over pay
for coins in auction.
However almost never over pay for
Coins in private transactions
This is an interesting discussion because many top collections are built on the concept of overpaying for quality.
Check out the world of tokens for a different form of rarity and collecting. I just picked up a R8 Civil War Token for less than $1000. R8 means 5 to 10 but I’ve only seen 2, both in older holders. No real need to update the holder as there isn’t even Registry competition for tokens. BTW, I have both specimens I’ve seen of this issue now. Of course, demand is lower which leads to a less mature market and different style of collecting.
Or try medals, or.....
Agreed. Basically, anywhere without Registry Set competition will have a much different way of collecting.
Not that one is better than the other. They both have advantages and disadvantages.
One advantage of having Registry Sets is you can get a PCGS pedigree if you compete well. Without them, ATS is the primary option.
I think everyone that enjoys and collects coins make an impact to the hobby (or business). The question is to what level or degree. I can never make the impact that Mr. Hansen can. But a thousand of me(s) may be able to get close. What I am trying to say is that the hobby needs everyone, and the more the better, certainly including Mr. Hansen.
If there is a thought out there that The Hansen Collection is “cutting everyone out of the collecting opportunity”, then I think that is not entirely true. Is he dominating some series and sets, sure is he is. Is he dominating everything, no. Bruce showed us an example where you can really enjoy the hobby in a “Hansen World”, if that is what you want to call it. It is amazing to see Bruce build a great 25 piece set in an area where it appear Mr. Hansen is not presently focused on. There are opportunities.
Lastly, let me share some numbers that I hope can add a little more perspective. I believe Mr. Hansen’s core set that he is focused on is the 2821 piece registry set U.S. COINS COMPLETE BASIC SET, CIRCULATION STRIKES (1792-1964). JB has told us this on several occasions. They have only 6 coins left, but they are also upgrading aggressively. For this set alone mathematically, there are 14,105 possible PCGS certified Condition Census Top 5 coins. With ties, non-PCGS grades, etc., the number is not precise, but there is the possibility. According to my numbers, Hansen Collection has 1,021 solid PCGS certified Top 5 coins (Only 7.2% of all possible Top 5 coins). This is not counting ties for Top 5, rather PCGS grades with POPs from 1/0 to 4/1. As large as this number is, there are over 13,000 Top 5 coins that other collectors own, including Mr. Hansen have some of them that are considered duplicates. IF... there were others that wanted to take the challenge that Mr. Hansen is doing, and strive to contend with him, this set alone could absorb 13 more billionaires. Now, Mr. Hansen has a head start, I don’t see him slowing down on upgrades anytime soon. But mathematically, even if The Hansen Collection assemblies 100% top five specimens, there is room for four others to have Condition Census Top 5 sets.
The point is, there are still a lot of great coins available. Who will be the next D. L. Hansen?
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004