Actually, I was anticipating a rush of the non collectors of America who, seeing the prime example of how they could enter the hobby, would stampede to join our forum and quickly participate in the registries.
No, very little effect on the high end. The same fallacy exists on taxation; statistics shows that tax cuts do very little except create a short lived sugar high.
Of course I liked the old Teletrade 5.5% on gold coins which was advantageous with tighter buy/sell spreads.
@ARCO said:
I guesss collectors enjoy the guaranteed transaction cost of a 20% auction fee?
I doubt anybody enjoys paying more, but eliminating a 20% buyer's fee won't change anything. A coin that's generally accepted to be worth $1,000 is going to cost the buyer around $1,000 regardless of how that $1,000 is accounted for.
IMO, it's a mistake to think that by eliminating a 20% buyer's fee, you're going to be able to buy coins for 20% less.
Mason. You are definitly right. The buy price wouldn't change. but if a buyer were to know that by buying a $1000 coin and then being able to sell it again for close to $1000 instead of $800 or so, this would not change the dynamics?
I just know me. I collected $500-$1500 coins and have collected 20 years buying and selling around 500K worth of coins. I will no longer buy US coins because I know that I will lose. I closed out my PCGS registry set and am have sold my coins for whatever I can get. Done, finished.
If I could buy coins and sell them for close to what I purchased, I would spend another 500K. So you can extrapolate from my experience whether lower transaction costs might help the hobby.
@ARCO said:
Mason. You are definitly right. The buy price wouldn't change. but if a buyer were to know that by buying a $1000 coin and then being able to sell it again for close to $1000 instead of $800 or so, this would not change the dynamics?
If you bought the coin for $1000, why are you supposing that it won't sell to someone else for around that amount?
@ARCO said:
Mason. You are definitly right. The buy price wouldn't change. but if a buyer were to know that by buying a $1000 coin and then being able to sell it again for close to $1000 instead of $800 or so, this would not change the dynamics?
If you bought the coin for $1000, why are you supposing that it won't sell to someone else for around that amount?
When a BP is involved, I generally read it as that it may sell for $1,000 again on the same venue, but as the seller, you would only get $800 or so after the BP is taken out.
You could try other venues without a that high of a BP, but your results may be mixed.
@Zoins said:
When a BP is involved, I generally read it as that it may sell for $1,000 again on the same venue, but as the seller, you would only get $800 or so after the BP is taken out.
You mean like what happened with the seller of the coin you bought, right?
@Zoins said:
When a BP is involved, I generally read it as that it may sell for $1,000 again on the same venue, but as the seller, you would only get $800 or so after the BP is taken out.
You mean like what happened with the seller of the coin you bought, right?
Yes, but you as the buyer would lose the BP when you went to sell.
It's part of the transaction fee that's been increasing over the years. In the past it was easier to upgrade due to (a) rising prices and (b) lower transaction fees. Today, transaction fees are higher and many coins are no longer seeing increasing prices so it's much harder to upgrade. In this environment, it may make more sense to just wait until you get a coin you're happy with and don't need to upgrade.
@ARCO said:
Mason. You are definitly right. The buy price wouldn't change. but if a buyer were to know that by buying a $1000 coin and then being able to sell it again for close to $1000 instead of $800 or so, this would not change the dynamics?
If you bought the coin for $1000, why are you supposing that it won't sell to someone else for around that amount?
Because I have experience that they do not. Not when auctions fees are factored in. You got a coin you paid $1000 for and sold for the same factoring auction fees? Show it.
@ARCO said:
Because I have experience that they do not.
I guess I'm not following your argument. You paid more than others are willing to pay, and are unhappy that others are unwilling to pay as much as you?
@ARCO said:
Because I have experience that they do not.
I guess I'm not following your argument. You paid more than others are willing to pay, and are unhappy that others are unwilling to pay as much as you?
So show a coin. Or, is yours nothing but hypothetical? I only buy at auctions, and I realize that there are fluctuations, but auction venues are not retail and the same auction venues when selling charge fees.
It really is a head scratcher this passes by you. If there were no transaction costs, that somehow the hobby would be the same. Incredible really.
@Zoins said:
Yes, but you as the buyer would lose the BP when you went to sell.
Of course. As did the guy whose coin you bought.
However, due to the increase in BP and decrease in coin prices, the dynamic has changed and people upgrade much less. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, just a different dynamic which may be further contributing to bifurcation.
@ARCO said:
I only buy at auctions, and I realize that there are fluctuations, but auction venues are not retail and the same auction venues when selling charge fees.
The guy whose coin you bought paid the same fee as you, when you sold. I'm still not clear why this is a problem.
@ARCO said:
I only buy at auctions, and I realize that there are fluctuations, but auction venues are not retail and the same auction venues when selling charge fees.
The guy whose coin you bought paid the same fee as you, when you sold. I'm still not clear why this is a problem.
Well, fees have been going up from 15 to17.5 to 20 percent, so the person before you may have paid a lower fee
@ARCO said:
Because I have experience that they do not.
I guess I'm not following your argument. You paid more than others are willing to pay, and are unhappy that others are unwilling to pay as much as you? @MasonG said:
@ARCO said:
I only buy at auctions, and I realize that there are fluctuations, but auction venues are not retail and the same auction venues when selling charge fees.
The guy whose coin you bought paid the same fee as you, when you sold. I'm still not clear why this is a problem.
@topstuf said:
All I have to say is that eBay is way way way too smart to ever even consider a ...BUYER.... fee.
There is a buyer fee. It's just not advertised.
As mentioned above, I think an important reason auction houses have the BP is so they can tell sellers they are getting 100% of hammer, even though that 100% gets smaller as the BP increases.
@ARCO said:
Mason. You are definitly right. The buy price wouldn't change. but if a buyer were to know that by buying a $1000 coin and then being able to sell it again for close to $1000 instead of $800 or so, this would not change the dynamics?
If you bought the coin for $1000, why are you supposing that it won't sell to someone else for around that amount?
When playing poker in a casino, winning against the other players isn't enough.. you have to beat The Rake, too.
@ARCO said:
Because I have experience that they do not.
I guess I'm not following your argument. You paid more than others are willing to pay, and are unhappy that others are unwilling to pay as much as you?
So show a coin. Or, is yours nothing but hypothetical? I only buy at auctions, and I realize that there are fluctuations, but auction venues are not retail and the same auction venues when selling charge fees.
It really is a head scratcher this passes by you. If there were no transaction costs, that somehow the hobby would be the same. Incredible really.
That's kinda on you for limiting your buy sell options so much. As a practical matter if you limit your purchase price to bid + juice + shipping you may not buy many nice coins without stretching.
@MasonG said:
If you can't explain what the problem is, you're right- I never will
here is the math and you tell me. Barber Half has a value of $1000. Auction records show this (within two years), close to greysheet, I make a bid on Heritage for $840 ( I bid less than the $1000 because I know there are auction fees I will pay). I win and end up paying $1008. I got my coin for $1000. Seller picks up $840.00 on a 1,000 coin.
Now I go to sell my $1000 coin on Heritage six months later. Still a $1000 Barber Half, bidder who wins bids $850.00 (he/she also factors in aucton fees). He gets the coin for $1,020.00 and I get $850.00
I paid $1000 for a Barber Half and sellling nets me $850.00 Rinse and repeat until money all gone. Now lets see your math.
@Zoins said:
This seems related to @ARCO's post saying he transacted $500k of $500-$1500 coins over 20 years but will no longer do it.
The post where he's unhappy about transaction costs? If that's the problem, all he has to do is buy and sell directly with other collectors and bypass the auction houses.
@ARCO said:
Now I go to sell my $1000 coin on Heritage six months later. Still a $1000 Barber Half, bidder who wins bids $850.00 (he/she also factors in aucton fees). He gets the coin for $1,020.00 and I get $850.00
I paid $1000 for a Barber Half and sellling nets me $850.00 Rinse and repeat until money all gone. Now lets see your math.
It costs money to run auctions. You don't appear to be allowing for the work the auction house does on your behalf.
@ARCO said:
Now I go to sell my $1000 coin on Heritage six months later. Still a $1000 Barber Half, bidder who wins bids $850.00 (he/she also factors in aucton fees). He gets the coin for $1,020.00 and I get $850.00
I paid $1000 for a Barber Half and sellling nets me $850.00 Rinse and repeat until money all gone. Now lets see your math.
It costs money to run auctions. You don't appear to be allowing for the work the auction house does on your behalf.
Then you agree, transaction costs exist and affect the market. Thank you.
@MasonG said:
If you can't explain what the problem is, you're right- I never will
here is the math and you tell me. Barber Half has a value of $1000. Auction records show this (within two years), close to greysheet, I make a bid on Heritage for $840 ( I bid less than the $1000 because I know there are auction fees I will pay). I win and end up paying $1008. I got my coin for $1000. Seller picks up $840.00 on a 1,000 coin.
Now I go to sell my $1000 coin on Heritage six months later. Still a $1000 Barber Half, bidder who wins bids $850.00 (he/she also factors in aucton fees). He gets the coin for $1,020.00 and I get $850.00
I paid $1000 for a Barber Half and sellling nets me $850.00 Rinse and repeat until money all gone. Now lets see your math.
Your fault for selling in a venue nearly guaranteed to get you a loss. What's wrong with other places?
@ARCO said:
Now I go to sell my $1000 coin on Heritage six months later. Still a $1000 Barber Half, bidder who wins bids $850.00 (he/she also factors in aucton fees). He gets the coin for $1,020.00 and I get $850.00
I paid $1000 for a Barber Half and sellling nets me $850.00 Rinse and repeat until money all gone. Now lets see your math.
It costs money to run auctions. You don't appear to be allowing for the work the auction house does on your behalf.
Then you agree, transaction costs exist and affect the market. Thank you.
If the buyer's fee were reduced to zero, and the seller's fee remained at zero (or whatever it is for that seller) then, you would probably see a significant increase in hammer prices. And the auction houses would quickly go out of business. Even if somehow the auction business survived I don't think that it would bring in more collectors; the folks who can't add 20% to their bid price now to understand what they are paying probably won't be bringing much to the hobby.
@savitale said:
If the buyer's fee were reduced to zero, and the seller's fee remained at zero (or whatever it is for that seller) then, you would probably see a significant increase in hammer prices. And the auction houses would quickly go out of business. Even if somehow the auction business survived I don't think that it would bring in more collectors; the folks who can't add 20% to their bid price now to understand what they are paying probably won't be bringing much to the hobby.
Did I even ....infer.... that the SELLER fee should disappear?
@savitale said:
If the buyer's fee were reduced to zero, and the seller's fee remained at zero (or whatever it is for that seller) then, you would probably see a significant increase in hammer prices. And the auction houses would quickly go out of business. Even if somehow the auction business survived I don't think that it would bring in more collectors; the folks who can't add 20% to their bid price now to understand what they are paying probably won't be bringing much to the hobby.
Did I even ....infer.... that the SELLER fee should disappear?
No, but I believe that for the major auction houses the sellers fee for the sellers who matter (i.e., valuable collections) is between zero and something negative. So there effectively is no sellers fee.
I've only purchased once from heritage, and the majority of the rest of my buys come from ebay. It is a huge hassle trying to figure out what my real price will be when trying to bid on the other auction sites. I don't have time for that.
@ARCO said:
Now I go to sell my $1000 coin on Heritage six months later.
edited for clarity...
Did you expect to get more than the previous seller did on the sale? If so, why?
No, as a collector I am perfectly happy breaking even. First I was "angry", now I "expect" a profit. We are talking about transaction costs and how it affects the buying patterns of collectors. I gave you an example. You provided nothing.
Your fault for selling in a venue nearly guaranteed to get you a loss. What's wrong with other places?
It was an example. I do not sell with Heritage because the auction fees are too high and the coins I buy can be sold on Ebay or GC. I usually sell on Ebay with the 9.1%.
Well, at least another confirmed that selling at certain auction venues guarantees a loss. I do agree.
The question posed is a hypothetical proposition. Obviously Auction houses serve a purpose, they take risk and do a lot of work and serve as a valuable medium to buy and sell collectables.
Despite the transaction fees it is also very probable that the market would have far less activity (less rejuvenation) without them. Heritage is my preferred place to buy higher value coins and without it, I would have bought far fewer coins.
Comments
Actually, I was anticipating a rush of the non collectors of America who, seeing the prime example of how they could enter the hobby, would stampede to join our forum and quickly participate in the registries.
No, very little effect on the high end. The same fallacy exists on taxation; statistics shows that tax cuts do very little except create a short lived sugar high.
Of course I liked the old Teletrade 5.5% on gold coins which was advantageous with tighter buy/sell spreads.
unfortunately, David Lawrence Auctions don't really have what I look for. the coins I have bought from them have been nice, though.
Mason. You are definitly right. The buy price wouldn't change. but if a buyer were to know that by buying a $1000 coin and then being able to sell it again for close to $1000 instead of $800 or so, this would not change the dynamics?
I just know me. I collected $500-$1500 coins and have collected 20 years buying and selling around 500K worth of coins. I will no longer buy US coins because I know that I will lose. I closed out my PCGS registry set and am have sold my coins for whatever I can get. Done, finished.
If I could buy coins and sell them for close to what I purchased, I would spend another 500K. So you can extrapolate from my experience whether lower transaction costs might help the hobby.
Ten years of Ebay and it was basically free. It can and does work.
If you bought the coin for $1000, why are you supposing that it won't sell to someone else for around that amount?
When a BP is involved, I generally read it as that it may sell for $1,000 again on the same venue, but as the seller, you would only get $800 or so after the BP is taken out.
You could try other venues without a that high of a BP, but your results may be mixed.
You mean like what happened with the seller of the coin you bought, right?
Yes, but you as the buyer would lose the BP when you went to sell.
It's part of the transaction fee that's been increasing over the years. In the past it was easier to upgrade due to (a) rising prices and (b) lower transaction fees. Today, transaction fees are higher and many coins are no longer seeing increasing prices so it's much harder to upgrade. In this environment, it may make more sense to just wait until you get a coin you're happy with and don't need to upgrade.
Because I have experience that they do not. Not when auctions fees are factored in. You got a coin you paid $1000 for and sold for the same factoring auction fees? Show it.
I guess I'm not following your argument. You paid more than others are willing to pay, and are unhappy that others are unwilling to pay as much as you?
So show a coin. Or, is yours nothing but hypothetical? I only buy at auctions, and I realize that there are fluctuations, but auction venues are not retail and the same auction venues when selling charge fees.
It really is a head scratcher this passes by you. If there were no transaction costs, that somehow the hobby would be the same. Incredible really.
Of course. As did the guy whose coin you bought.
However, due to the increase in BP and decrease in coin prices, the dynamic has changed and people upgrade much less. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, just a different dynamic which may be further contributing to bifurcation.
The guy whose coin you bought paid the same fee as you, when you sold. I'm still not clear why this is a problem.
Well, fees have been going up from 15 to17.5 to 20 percent, so the person before you may have paid a lower fee
Ok. Things change.
Ok. Then don't use an auction company to sell your coin. Problem solved.
And clearly you never will.
All I have to say is that eBay is way way way too smart to ever even consider a ...BUYER.... fee.
If you can't explain what the problem is, you're right- I never will
Yes, they do. This seems related to @ARCO's post saying he transacted $500k of $500-$1500 coins over 20 years but will no longer do it. Things change.
There is a buyer fee. It's just not advertised.
As mentioned above, I think an important reason auction houses have the BP is so they can tell sellers they are getting 100% of hammer, even though that 100% gets smaller as the BP increases.
When playing poker in a casino, winning against the other players isn't enough.. you have to beat The Rake, too.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
That's kinda on you for limiting your buy sell options so much. As a practical matter if you limit your purchase price to bid + juice + shipping you may not buy many nice coins without stretching.
here is the math and you tell me. Barber Half has a value of $1000. Auction records show this (within two years), close to greysheet, I make a bid on Heritage for $840 ( I bid less than the $1000 because I know there are auction fees I will pay). I win and end up paying $1008. I got my coin for $1000. Seller picks up $840.00 on a 1,000 coin.
Now I go to sell my $1000 coin on Heritage six months later. Still a $1000 Barber Half, bidder who wins bids $850.00 (he/she also factors in aucton fees). He gets the coin for $1,020.00 and I get $850.00
I paid $1000 for a Barber Half and sellling nets me $850.00 Rinse and repeat until money all gone. Now lets see your math.
The post where he's unhappy about transaction costs? If that's the problem, all he has to do is buy and sell directly with other collectors and bypass the auction houses.
The problem is that 20% of auction customers' coin budget is buying hot tubs and kids braces for all the middlemen.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Don't be so positive. I've heard that they have done some crazy things that users of the service don't like.
It costs money to run auctions. You don't appear to be allowing for the work the auction house does on your behalf.
Then don't use middlemen to sell your coins. Problem solved.
So we're not talking about collecting coins, then?
Then you agree, transaction costs exist and affect the market. Thank you.
Never even hinted otherwise.
Hehe. MasonG you have never sold a $1000 coin have you?
I have. Why do you ask?
Your fault for selling in a venue nearly guaranteed to get you a loss. What's wrong with other places?
Yup, sold at about market price both times.
edited for clarity...
Did you expect to get more than the previous seller did on the sale? If so, why?
Heavens to Betsy !!
If the buyer's fee were reduced to zero, and the seller's fee remained at zero (or whatever it is for that seller) then, you would probably see a significant increase in hammer prices. And the auction houses would quickly go out of business. Even if somehow the auction business survived I don't think that it would bring in more collectors; the folks who can't add 20% to their bid price now to understand what they are paying probably won't be bringing much to the hobby.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Did I even ....infer.... that the SELLER fee should disappear?
No, but I believe that for the major auction houses the sellers fee for the sellers who matter (i.e., valuable collections) is between zero and something negative. So there effectively is no sellers fee.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
I've only purchased once from heritage, and the majority of the rest of my buys come from ebay. It is a huge hassle trying to figure out what my real price will be when trying to bid on the other auction sites. I don't have time for that.
No, as a collector I am perfectly happy breaking even. First I was "angry", now I "expect" a profit. We are talking about transaction costs and how it affects the buying patterns of collectors. I gave you an example. You provided nothing.
It was an example. I do not sell with Heritage because the auction fees are too high and the coins I buy can be sold on Ebay or GC. I usually sell on Ebay with the 9.1%.
Well, at least another confirmed that selling at certain auction venues guarantees a loss. I do agree.
The question posed is a hypothetical proposition. Obviously Auction houses serve a purpose, they take risk and do a lot of work and serve as a valuable medium to buy and sell collectables.
Despite the transaction fees it is also very probable that the market would have far less activity (less rejuvenation) without them. Heritage is my preferred place to buy higher value coins and without it, I would have bought far fewer coins.
What is the potted plant fee?