@btcollects said:
These books are available all over the internet for free. I think most of the world either doesn't recognize USA copyright laws or doesn't enforce them. For example, on another coin forum I like, they post links to lots of book downloads, something we don't really see here in the USA forums. There's probably value to Krause's content if it were monetized through ads and a slick search feature.
The NGC World Coin Price Guide is free online and I believe it gets it's data from the standard catalog of world coins. The search feature isn't slick, but it works.
Order (I) Approving Asset Purchase Agreement, (II) Authorizing the Sale of Certain Communities with the Debtors Communities Business Line Free and Clear of All Encumbrances, (III) Authorizing the Assumption and Assignment of Certain Executory Contracts and Unexpired Leases, and (IV) Granting Related Relief. (related document(s)[80], [157], [310], [354]) Order Signed on 7/1/2019. (Attachments: # (1) Exhibit 1 # (2) Exhibit 2) (GM)
Debtor: 19-10479 F+W Media, Inc.
So the sale to Cruz Bay is greenlit.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Docket #380
Filed Jul 16 2019
Authorizing the Sale of the Debtors United Kingdom Books Business
This one is interesting... they are buying https://www.fwmedia.co.uk/ (and several other domains) which almost looks like a total platform for selling books.
They're also paying off the authors, from somebody owed $5,394.81 for "LUNA LAPIN" down to CELEBRATE WITH A STITCH PDF, HOW TO GO TO A MEDIUM PDF, and LIFE AFTER DEATH PDF each of whom is owed $0.03
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Active Interest Media Acquires Four F+W Groups Including Numismatics
Posted on July 19, 2019 by Numismatic News Staff
Active Interest MediaBoulder, CO: North America’s leading participant media company today announced the acquisition of four storied groups of enthusiast brands from F+W Media. “The addition of Writer’s Digest, Popular Woodworking, Horticulture, and the Collectibles Group significantly extends our footprint in passionate markets that fit Active Interest Media’s vision for future growth,” said President & CEO Andrew Clurman.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
“We’re thrilled to welcome all 67 staff dedicated to these brands to the AIM family,” said Clurman. “We will maintain the existing operations and teams in Cincinnati, Ohio, and Stevens Point, Wisconsin, while providing the support that will help drive growth from our video, digital marketing, and creative services units in AIM’s Boulder headquarters.”
I'm sure it will take a bit of time to get all the back-office data loaded into AIM's systems. If you are a print subscriber, you'll probably see your label format change slightly. We'll probably also see slight changes in formatting due to different publishing platforms, etc.
Finally for now, in the Asset Purchase Agreement for the books business (Krause is the one we care about) and very much in the you never know department, the five domains above the bottom one are all part of Krause' business
The NSFW ones redirect to a generic Krause publications page...
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
But there won't be enough left to pay the creditors AHEAD of us. So rather than waste what's left on lawyers...
Pay us $100K, and a claim for the rest which we all know is worthless, and we'll go away and let the rest of the vultures pick over the corpse some more...
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Motion to Dismiss Case Filed by F+W Media, Inc.. Hearing scheduled for 9/18/2019 at 10:00 AM at US Bankruptcy Court, 824 Market St., 6th Fl., Courtroom #3, Wilmington, Delaware. Objections due by 8/23/2019.
Months before the outset of the Chapter 11 Cases, the Debtors and their professionals began working diligently to formulate and close sales of substantially all of the Debtors’ assets, thereby preserving as much of the Debtors’ business as possible as a going concern and preserving jobs and vendor relationships. Through their tireless efforts, including extensive negotiations, two auctions, and two sale hearings, the Debtors successfully consummated eight (8) separate sales resulting in approximately $10.5 million in sale proceeds. The last of the sales closed on July 26, 2019.
Although the sale proceeds will be sufficient to repay the DIP Obligations, the Debtors commenced the Chapter 11 Cases with approximately $60 million in Pre-Petition Secured Claims (as defined and validated in the Final DIP Order). The Final DIP Order recognized prepetition liens and created post-petition adequate protection liens on substantially all of the Debtors’ assets in favor of the Pre-Petition Lenders. No party challenged the PrePetition Lenders’ liens or claims. Given the extent of the Pre-Petition Liens, the balance of the sale proceeds following repayment of the DIP Obligations will redound to the benefit of the PrePetition Lenders to repay the Tranche B-1 Term Loans. Accordingly, there is no reasonable prospect of distributions from any Debtor’s estate to any holders of prepetition unsecured claims against the Debtors, and the estates do not and will not have available funds to satisfy either priority claims or general unsecured claims which have been asserted against them.
Or, translated...
We borrowed money (DIP + Debtor In Possession) to fund operations until we pulled the plug and we can pay THEM back.
Everybody else either had a pre-petition secured claim or lien or became an unsecured claim
There ain't gonna be no money to pay the unsecured claim
The Debtors have explored various options to bring the Chapter 11 Cases to a conclusion, and believe, after making appropriate considerations, that a dismissal of the Chapter 11 Cases is the most expeditious and cost-effective mechanism to wind down the Debtors’ affairs. In reaching this conclusion, the Debtors determined that a dismissal would not negatively impact creditors (as compared to a chapter 11 plan or conversion to chapter 7) because there are no remaining assets of any value available for distributions to unsecured creditors and insufficient funds to support the administrative costs of pursuing anything but a prompt exit from bankruptcy.
Translated: We sold off everything we could sell and there's nothing left to create a Chapter 11 plan to come OUT of bankruptcy or a Chapter 7 (Liquidation) plan
The Debtors are unable to pursue a confirmable chapter 11 plan because they do not have sufficient assets available to pay all administrative and priority creditors in full, nor a credible path to securing a non-insider, impaired consenting class. The Debtors considered exiting the Chapter 11 Cases through a chapter 7 process but believe that the additional chapter 7 trustee’s fees, commissions, and related costs would make any recovery to priority and unsecured creditors similarly unlikely, if not impossible.
Same as above, except we're admitting we couldn't even pay the lawers to mess around trying to create a plan.
RELIEF REQUESTED
31. By this Motion, the Debtors request entry of: (a) the Initial Order (i) establishing procedures for the payment of Professional Fees; and (ii) authorizing the abandonment and destruction of Books and Records not sold to the Purchasers; and (b) the Dismissal Order (upon filing of a certification of counsel stating that the conditions precedent to dismissal as described in this Motion have been met) dismissing the Chapter 11 Cases pursuant to section 1112(b) of the Bankruptcy Code. For the avoidance of doubt, the steps taken pursuant to the Initial Order shall be made after the Debtors pay all U.S. Trustee fees and pay approved Professional Fees. To the extent that there are any assets remaining with the estates upon the payment of allowed Professional Fees, such assets shall be remitted to the Pre-Petition Lenders, on account of the Pre-Petition Secured Debt.
Pay the consultants, throw the remaining records in the dumpster and turn off the lights.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I enjoy your reports and analysis, but a final and unsavory demise for F&W top corporation has been obvious for years. Tant pis. Corporate game players and leeching lawyers are of little matter.
The continuation of the numismatic publications and numismatic books is what remains desirable. I still have my fingers crossed for a good outcome.
To me, a world without Krause is unthinkable. I was never a fan of their CDs , and whenever I needed a more recent valuation, I’d use the recent copies of my coin club. Or I’d do a search for recent auction realized prices.
Krause also covers the banknote world, especially world notes in three volumes (and a fourth now that deals with the 21st century alone). I’m a subscriber to their Banknote reporter, but the publication is going downhill and I’m not going to renew my subscription.
Everything I read here makes me sad. Despite their mistakes, a constant undervaluation of modern issues and several other categories, it is still the publication that no collector can ignore. In the banknotes volumes, they are also the ones that keep on using the Pick numbering system, a similar thing with KM numbers in coins, but absolutely essential for banknotes, to know what we’re talking about. US notes go by Friedberg.
@SYRACUSIAN It seems the big catalogs were sold to a separate buyer from the buyer of the periodic numismatic publications.
This is a big problem for both World Coin News and Banknote Reporter as those two periodic publications were essentially "loss leaders" to connect their readers to the catalogs.
So in my mind, we are simply talking about whether or not Numismatic News can survive. Unless the Catalog division and the Publications division can be reconnected, somehow.
@SYRACUSIAN said:
To me, a world without Krause is unthinkable. I was never a fan of their CDs , and whenever I needed a more recent valuation, I’d use the recent copies of my coin club. Or I’d do a search for recent auction realized prices.
Krause also covers the banknote world, especially world notes in three volumes (and a fourth now that deals with the 21st century alone). I’m a subscriber to their Banknote reporter, but the publication is going downhill and I’m not going to renew my subscription.
Everything I read here makes me sad. Despite their mistakes, a constant undervaluation of modern issues and several other categories, it is still the publication that no collector can ignore. In the banknotes volumes, they are also the ones that keep on using the Pick numbering system, a similar thing with KM numbers in coins, but absolutely essential for banknotes, to know what we’re talking about. US notes go by Friedberg.
I couldn't agree more. It's all very sad and it was all very preventable.
A world without Krause is a much poorer place... ...maybe a little saner though.
It will force more people to research prices which might actually help in many ways.
@BillDugan1959 Active Interest Media (Cruz Bay Publishing is a wholly-owned subsidiary) make its niche from small-circulation titles. There is hope.
My concern is that Penguin - who bought Krause Books - doesn't look like they have other yearly catalog type publications. Krause already seemed to be on shakey ground (have they assigned KM#s for 2018 coins?) . It's an expensive proposition to do the pricing updates, add all the new coins, etc. So my personal bet is the last edition of the SCWC is the last... just a feeling.
I agree that the root cause is an attempt by F+W to pivot - badly executed and with a huge debt load. They were all but guaranteeing their own immolation.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@BStrauss3 said: @BillDugan1959 Active Interest Media (Cruz Bay Publishing is a wholly-owned subsidiary) make its niche from small-circulation titles. There is hope.
My concern is that Penguin - who bought Krause Books - doesn't look like they have other yearly catalog type publications. Krause already seemed to be on shakey ground (have they assigned KM#s for 2018 coins?) . It's an expensive proposition to do the pricing updates, add all the new coins, etc. So my personal bet is the last edition of the SCWC is the last... just a feeling.
I agree that the root cause is an attempt by F+W to pivot - badly executed and with a huge debt load. They were all but guaranteeing their own immolation.
The most recent F+W structure/restructure was a cluster from its inception. The people who set it up probably walked away early, with their pockets full of greenies. Typical corporate games.
I have bought all the most recent SCWC catalogs. Two copies each for the most recent 19th and 20th Centuries catalogs (overkill, I know). Going to miss the getting of new ones, should it come to that.
I think of Mr. Krause's dream that KP would provide many good jobs in Iola, WI for many years to come. Sic transit Gloria mundi...
I'm not an expert, and I certainly didn't scrutinize every word of every filing, but I don't recall seeing any contracts between the F+W units. If it's true that the major source of new input into SCWC and ilk is the reporting from NN and BR and such - since they get all the press releases from the various mints and printers - then Bertelsmann/Penguin need to set up such a relationship if they're going to maintain the books (vs. just selling a few copies as a backlist). Or do the work themselves.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I have no doubt that the world coins arena will be in a greater state of disarray. Where will be the at least somewhat centralized data collection and reporting/publishing occur? As Cladking has said on many occasions, many will remain or fade into obscurity. I don't see this as a good thing and concur that there are at least no obvious signs that their work will be continued.
Up through about 2016 I took on the Great Britain pre-decimal section of 1800-1970 era, and it all became too much really. So, I tried to help continue it as a guide & made sure that pattern and proofs were reported to them at a standard equal to or better than the yearly Spink (they didn't always tabulate all the information provided).
Despite all the criticism, it was a pretty good catalog (the World Coins). I am surprised that a deal was not worked with Whitman - maybe that could still happen?
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
It was an open outcry auction and they tried to shop the properties to anybody they thought would be interested.
The auction was canceled because they had only ONE qualified bidder. Penguin almost walked because of the UK issues... they sold that business for a pittance:
Not to walk away empty-handed, Cruz Bay Publishing secured successful bids for the 7x frequency Popular Woodworking (beating out Meredith Corp. with a $1 million offer), 8x frequency Writer’s Digest for $200,000 (beating out enthusiast publisher Madavor Media), 7x frequency Family Tree for $100,000, 8x frequency Horticulture Magazine for $75,000 and F+W’s collectibles group,** which comprises six additional print magazines, for $350,000**.
There just isn't any interest in our little corner of the world. It will become a quieter, more lonely place. A few staffers putting out the magazines and newspapers... Once they've fulfilled the obligations they bought (the remaining life of prepaid subscriptions), well, if renewals hold up, it continues. If they don't, poof.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
"The vaccines work,” Trump said, adding that the people who “get very sick and go to the hospital” are unvaccinated.
“Look, the results of the vaccine are very good, and if you do get it, it’s a very minor form,” Trump continued. “People aren’t dying when they take the vaccine.”
Do your part, America 💉😷
I think the predicted outcome has been pretty much correct.
The new owners of the Krause world coin books have not invested in them and have apparently stopped publishing them. I note there are a few copies of the last editions still available on Amazon. At this point, I am not surprised if everyone just gets the last edition from the bootleg sites (since you would not be cannibalizing any sales).
It seems Numismatic News, at least, is still in operation.
I think you're right. A world price guide doesn't really make sense as anything other than a passion project. I'm not sure the scale is there for it to be profitable relative to the difficulty to create it.
I averaged less than 10 seconds looking up coins in the 80's era Krauses and by the time I had an edition for a while I averaged about 15 seconds in the later editions.
I usually don't bother with Numista at all because it takes so long to find anything and then the moderns all list at 50 cents anyway even when they go for $100 on eBay.
Comments
The NGC World Coin Price Guide is free online and I believe it gets it's data from the standard catalog of world coins. The search feature isn't slick, but it works.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
I happened to notice that one of the contracts they're assigning with the community's business is for NGC data
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
The books component of the business has been purchased by Penguin Random House, a subsidiary of Bertelsmann.
https://coinsweekly.com/bertelsmann-acquires-ownership-of-krause-publications/
We'll have to wait and see what they do with it.
I did buy the just-released 2020 SCWC, 1901-2000. Actually got a small discount this time.
Who knows what the future will bring? Penguin is a big outfit, they are unlikely to be interested in the whole line of what they purchased.
Docket # 357, July 1, 2019
So the sale to Cruz Bay is greenlit.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Docket #380
Filed Jul 16 2019
Authorizing the Sale of the Debtors United Kingdom Books Business
This one is interesting... they are buying https://www.fwmedia.co.uk/ (and several other domains) which almost looks like a total platform for selling books.
They're also paying off the authors, from somebody owed $5,394.81 for "LUNA LAPIN" down to CELEBRATE WITH A STITCH PDF, HOW TO GO TO A MEDIUM PDF, and LIFE AFTER DEATH PDF each of whom is owed $0.03
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Whelp, the deed is done...
https://www.numismaticnews.net/article/active-interest-media-acquires-four-fw-groups-including-numismatics
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
That settles that.
Does Numismatic News arive in a plain brown wrapper?
I'd ask them directly but it seems you'd have to create an account t ask a question.
I'm sure it will take a bit of time to get all the back-office data loaded into AIM's systems. If you are a print subscriber, you'll probably see your label format change slightly. We'll probably also see slight changes in formatting due to different publishing platforms, etc.
You can probably keep an eye on what's happening here: https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Active-Interest-Media/jobs
(You can learn a lot about a company from job postings - tools they use, new initiatives, etc.)
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Finally for now, in the Asset Purchase Agreement for the books business (Krause is the one we care about) and very much in the you never know department, the five domains above the bottom one are all part of Krause' business
The NSFW ones redirect to a generic Krause publications page...
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Put me down for "Bad Coins Need Love Too"
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Ulp... the vultures are picking over the carcass now... But these are the NICE vultures...
https://document.epiq11.com/document/getdocumenstbydocket/?docketId=723385&projectCode=FWM&docketNumber=405&source=DM
You owed us $195K
But there won't be enough left to pay the creditors AHEAD of us. So rather than waste what's left on lawyers...
Pay us $100K, and a claim for the rest which we all know is worthless, and we'll go away and let the rest of the vultures pick over the corpse some more...
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
And the penny drops...
https://document.epiq11.com/document/getdocumenstbydocket/?docketId=724714&projectCode=FWM&docketNumber=421&source=DM
Docket#421
Motion to Dismiss Case Filed by F+W Media, Inc.. Hearing scheduled for 9/18/2019 at 10:00 AM at US Bankruptcy Court, 824 Market St., 6th Fl., Courtroom #3, Wilmington, Delaware. Objections due by 8/23/2019.
Or, translated...
Translated: We sold off everything we could sell and there's nothing left to create a Chapter 11 plan to come OUT of bankruptcy or a Chapter 7 (Liquidation) plan
Same as above, except we're admitting we couldn't even pay the lawers to mess around trying to create a plan.
Pay the consultants, throw the remaining records in the dumpster and turn off the lights.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I enjoy your reports and analysis, but a final and unsavory demise for F&W top corporation has been obvious for years. Tant pis. Corporate game players and leeching lawyers are of little matter.
The continuation of the numismatic publications and numismatic books is what remains desirable. I still have my fingers crossed for a good outcome.
To me, a world without Krause is unthinkable. I was never a fan of their CDs , and whenever I needed a more recent valuation, I’d use the recent copies of my coin club. Or I’d do a search for recent auction realized prices.
Krause also covers the banknote world, especially world notes in three volumes (and a fourth now that deals with the 21st century alone). I’m a subscriber to their Banknote reporter, but the publication is going downhill and I’m not going to renew my subscription.
Everything I read here makes me sad. Despite their mistakes, a constant undervaluation of modern issues and several other categories, it is still the publication that no collector can ignore. In the banknotes volumes, they are also the ones that keep on using the Pick numbering system, a similar thing with KM numbers in coins, but absolutely essential for banknotes, to know what we’re talking about. US notes go by Friedberg.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
@SYRACUSIAN It seems the big catalogs were sold to a separate buyer from the buyer of the periodic numismatic publications.
This is a big problem for both World Coin News and Banknote Reporter as those two periodic publications were essentially "loss leaders" to connect their readers to the catalogs.
So in my mind, we are simply talking about whether or not Numismatic News can survive. Unless the Catalog division and the Publications division can be reconnected, somehow.
I couldn't agree more. It's all very sad and it was all very preventable.
A world without Krause is a much poorer place... ...maybe a little saner though.
It will force more people to research prices which might actually help in many ways.
@BillDugan1959 Active Interest Media (Cruz Bay Publishing is a wholly-owned subsidiary) make its niche from small-circulation titles. There is hope.
My concern is that Penguin - who bought Krause Books - doesn't look like they have other yearly catalog type publications. Krause already seemed to be on shakey ground (have they assigned KM#s for 2018 coins?) . It's an expensive proposition to do the pricing updates, add all the new coins, etc. So my personal bet is the last edition of the SCWC is the last... just a feeling.
I agree that the root cause is an attempt by F+W to pivot - badly executed and with a huge debt load. They were all but guaranteeing their own immolation.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
The most recent F+W structure/restructure was a cluster from its inception. The people who set it up probably walked away early, with their pockets full of greenies. Typical corporate games.
I have bought all the most recent SCWC catalogs. Two copies each for the most recent 19th and 20th Centuries catalogs (overkill, I know). Going to miss the getting of new ones, should it come to that.
I think of Mr. Krause's dream that KP would provide many good jobs in Iola, WI for many years to come. Sic transit Gloria mundi...
They had a longish run after being sold in 2002... but poor organizational skills will eventually bite you...
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2002-07-03-0207030111-story.html
https://coinsweekly.com/bertelsmann-acquires-ownership-of-krause-publications/
(they play games to make their text unquotable for lots of reasons, but)
I'm not an expert, and I certainly didn't scrutinize every word of every filing, but I don't recall seeing any contracts between the F+W units. If it's true that the major source of new input into SCWC and ilk is the reporting from NN and BR and such - since they get all the press releases from the various mints and printers - then Bertelsmann/Penguin need to set up such a relationship if they're going to maintain the books (vs. just selling a few copies as a backlist). Or do the work themselves.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I have no doubt that the world coins arena will be in a greater state of disarray. Where will be the at least somewhat centralized data collection and reporting/publishing occur? As Cladking has said on many occasions, many will remain or fade into obscurity. I don't see this as a good thing and concur that there are at least no obvious signs that their work will be continued.
Up through about 2016 I took on the Great Britain pre-decimal section of 1800-1970 era, and it all became too much really. So, I tried to help continue it as a guide & made sure that pattern and proofs were reported to them at a standard equal to or better than the yearly Spink (they didn't always tabulate all the information provided).
Despite all the criticism, it was a pretty good catalog (the World Coins). I am surprised that a deal was not worked with Whitman - maybe that could still happen?
Well, just Love coins, period.
Fat Chance.
It was an open outcry auction and they tried to shop the properties to anybody they thought would be interested.
The auction was canceled because they had only ONE qualified bidder. Penguin almost walked because of the UK issues... they sold that business for a pittance:
As for the communities...
The one we care about:
(https://www.foliomag.com/fw-media-announces-winning-bidders-bankruptcy-auction/)
Not to walk away empty-handed, Cruz Bay Publishing secured successful bids for the 7x frequency Popular Woodworking (beating out Meredith Corp. with a $1 million offer), 8x frequency Writer’s Digest for $200,000 (beating out enthusiast publisher Madavor Media), 7x frequency Family Tree for $100,000, 8x frequency Horticulture Magazine for $75,000 and F+W’s collectibles group,** which comprises six additional print magazines, for $350,000**.
There just isn't any interest in our little corner of the world. It will become a quieter, more lonely place. A few staffers putting out the magazines and newspapers... Once they've fulfilled the obligations they bought (the remaining life of prepaid subscriptions), well, if renewals hold up, it continues. If they don't, poof.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
A fire sale. Anyone getting the message?
"The vaccines work,” Trump said, adding that the people who “get very sick and go to the hospital” are unvaccinated.
“Look, the results of the vaccine are very good, and if you do get it, it’s a very minor form,” Trump continued. “People aren’t dying when they take the vaccine.”
Do your part, America 💉😷
Reviving this old thread.
I think the predicted outcome has been pretty much correct.
The new owners of the Krause world coin books have not invested in them and have apparently stopped publishing them. I note there are a few copies of the last editions still available on Amazon. At this point, I am not surprised if everyone just gets the last edition from the bootleg sites (since you would not be cannibalizing any sales).
It seems Numismatic News, at least, is still in operation.
I think you're right. A world price guide doesn't really make sense as anything other than a passion project. I'm not sure the scale is there for it to be profitable relative to the difficulty to create it.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
My 2018 Krause 1901-2000 hard copy is a second hand from a library ( was very cheap):
Coinsof1984@martinb6830 on twitter
I averaged less than 10 seconds looking up coins in the 80's era Krauses and by the time I had an edition for a while I averaged about 15 seconds in the later editions.
I usually don't bother with Numista at all because it takes so long to find anything and then the moderns all list at 50 cents anyway even when they go for $100 on eBay.
And Krause's pricing - lets randomly raise everything on these 50 pages by 10% - was any better?
Collecting price data is very very difficult. You don't always find enough for every grade and have to extrapolate anyway.
If you have just one or two sales, are they representative or was one or both coins somehow special (toned?)?
If you crowdsource it, you spend almost as much time spot checking.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")