MS69 1938-D BUFFALO NICKEL, where is it?
BUFFNIXX
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I keep waiting for the first MS69 1938-d buffalo nickel to be graded by pcgs or ngc. But it has not happened. I have seen some ms67 buffs I swear should be in ms68 or ms69 holders but there seems to be a limit set for this series at ms68.
Am I wrong or do you think either of these services would be open to an ms69 if a truly monster specimen would rear its head in public?
Am I wrong or do you think either of these services would be open to an ms69 if a truly monster specimen would rear its head in public?
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
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Maybe the next owner got it crossed, but I doubt it. Would have had to crack it out and send it in raw, that way loosing the ms68 grade.
I can just imagine the huge amounts of $$$ spent on resubmissions for stuff like this
There was recently a pcgs ms67+ 1913 type one buff (on ebay) that was cracked out because people at Heritage & Stacks/Bowers told the owner this coin
belongs in a 68 holder, So, out comes the hammer! Crack goes the slab. Off it goes to ngc and comes back in an ngc MS67 holder.
Now the coin is worth much less, so what does the owner do next? Lists it on eBay with an asking price of $2999.00 with a buy-it-now
option. It was a beautiful coin. One of the nicest type one business strikes I have ever seen. But.....??
(I do not know if the coin sold)
Any thoughts??
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
<< <i>Just give it to an Eric P. Newman or a Pogue. The power players get things done. A random submission by you or I has no chance, .....ever. >>
I agree.
<< <i>I believe that if there is one, and it is submitted, they would surely grade it as such.... Cheers, RickO >>
...Ahhh, yes, but would it get a BEAN?...
Fairly recently,i bought an accumulation of about 700 Buffalo nickels.There was only one 1938-D in the group.This coin is definitely scarcer in circulated than it is in uncirculated condition.As a side note,I found no less than four 1926-S's in the accumulation.
There is no detectable difference to the eye in evaluating whether coin is MS68 or MS69. Anyone who claims there is a difference is (fill in the blank).I have a really,really nice 1973-S Ike dollar that I was thinking might make MS68 grade.Coin is virtually perfect mint state condition to my eye.The way I see it,my coin did not get 68 because either not enough 67's have been graded or,as roadrunner points out is the case with '38-D buffalo nickels,no or very,very few '73-S's been graded 68 (pop 1?).
I don't know what the pops are for '73-S dollars.I don't care about pops so I just call my '73-S Ike "superb gem uncirculated" (worth about $80) and let it go at that. The reason I sent my '73-S in for grading was to get it out of the mint cellophane package to help prevent environmental damage.It's NGC graded MS67 and will be NGC MS67 for as long as it is in my possession.
BUFFNIX,I hope you eventually get to see an MS69 graded 1938-D Buffalo Nickel.But don't expect it to look any better than a 1938-D that's been graded MS68.It's a numbers game for bragging rights mostly,as roadrunner says.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong.”
“Then you trust more to your imagination than to your knowledge?”
“I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”
Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
<< <i>Fairly recently,i bought an accumulation of about 700 Buffalo nickels.There was only one 1938-D in the group.This coin is definitely scarcer in circulated than it is in uncirculated condition.As a side note,I found no less than four 1926-S's in the accumulation. >>
When I was searching nickel rolls in the early 1960s, I would find 1938D nickels roughly in proportion to their mintage. I never found a 1926S.
Plenty of unc. 1938D buffalos were saved, but I think circs are more common. The price of circulated specimens is somewhat high relative to the mintage, but I think that's mostly due to buffaloes of that date being available from only one mint. (A similar situation exists for 1922D cents.)
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I came across this thread that is four years old. I hope there is still an interest in this topic. The buffalo nickel has been my favorite since I started searching through my mother's change for them as a kid in the 1960s. I spent a long time searching for a pristine specimen that was a razor sharp strike and free of flaws. I recently found a 1938 D that was rated MS 67 by NGC and has a CAC sticker. It is well struck, apparently from a new die. The fields are absolutely pristine. All of the lettering is perfect. I cannot detect the slightest flaw in this coin. It looks like an MS 69 to me. It looks nicer than any of the MS 68s that I have seen. I don't know why NGC gave it only an MS 67. I will try to scan a good image and post it here.
I wasn't able to get a decent photo.
There are four 1938 D buffalo nickels graded at MS 68 on eBay right now. To my eye, the MS 67 that I have looks better than any of them. I have a feeling that there is a certain amount of chance in the grade that comes back when you get in the MS 67, MS 68, and MS 69 range.
I saw I posted on this thread, everytime I reminded it irritates me. I had a gorgeous purple /magenta/ toned 38-d in ogh 66, the reason I didn't submit it for regrade was the spot on the neck. a 7 blue wasn't worth the cost loosing th undergrade ogh. But in fact, it got fixed, spot removed and sold at auction as a 68 for darn near 12k
I don't have any experience dealing with the grading services. Are you saying that coins in the old green holders tend to be under graded? Also, are you saying that someone bought the coin from you, had the spot removed, and then got it graded as an MS 68? If so, it would seem that, technically, it should have been regarded as non-gradable since it had been cleaned (even if just a spot).
"Where is it?"
The future MS69 buffalo nickel is probably a monster toner sitting in a 67 holder waiting to be color bumped into the limelight.
Did it sticker? The coin was obviously doctored so the price is surprising. If there is a doctor that good, we should all know.
If true, wouldn't this imply the grading service is corrupt as well as knowing who's coins they are grading?
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
@cinclodes....Welcome aboard....People tend to believe that coins in OGH holders were more stringently graded than they are today...thus, if cracked and resubmitted (or just resubmitted) may get a higher grade. It has happened...and spot removal, while technically 'cleaning', often comes under the term 'conservation', when performed by experts and is a service offered by the TPG's...If done properly, and no traces remain, it is considered acceptable. Cheers, RickO
https://legendauctions.hibid.com/lot/28549946/5c-1938-d-buffalo-pcgs-ms68/
This one?
I'm trying to think what an MS69 38-D must have to look like, so I took a walk through the CoinFacts images for the 68+ and a few 68s. The 38-D dies are often worn and have orange-peel here and there, and the detail left on the master dies in 38 isn't all that good, so while the strike must be excellent, it might not have great detail. Stunning eye appeal will rule the day in that grade, however, and it must include undeniably attractive toning. The surfaces of the first two untoned 68s are pristine, as one would expect. Scrolling through the CF pictures, which have compression and resizing artifacts (not looking at large TVs), it takes a little while to find grade-limiting ticks. The 68+ has more notable deficiencies -- a tick on the rim by R in LIBERTY and planchet marks that weren't fully struck out of the reverse, but color that in the eyes of graders and buyers apparently more than makes up for it. Put that color on the second 68, and there's your 69. You won't even have to remove the two ticks behind the nose.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
If I’m reading the pop report correctly there are only 33 MS68 2 MS68+ in type 1 Buffalo
There are only 69 MS68 4 MS68+ In Type two with 38-D holding 35 MS68 and 2 MS68+ so the fact that a lot of 38s where saved helps and 1913 type1 where beautifully hammered. Now how many actually exists due to crack out and resubmitted who knows. Looking at the numbers if a 69 is out there it’s probably a 1913 type 1 or a 38-D It will be interesting to see if one ever pops up
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
Here are the best (but not very good) images that I was able to obtain with a hand-held camera. The apparent graininess of the obverse is an artifact of the inadequate photography technique. When viewed in good light with a magnifying glass, I can't see the slightest defect in the strike or any post-mintage defects, and that is why I selected this specimen after a long search.
Since it's not possible to credibly challenge the grade of the coin from the pictures, all I can say is that you should feel happy that you paid for a 67 rather than the 30x premium an indistinguishable 68 would have cost you.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
That is definitely true. What I care about is the condition, strike, and eye appeal of a coin. I regard the grade itself to be a vanity thing. However, I am puzzled by how decisions are made between the higher MS grades. When looking for this coin, I noticed many coins of lower grade that seemed better than coins of higher grade.
@cinclodes , I would suggest that you might not be looking at the same things the graders are.
From what I can tell, the key determinant for distinguishing between 66-68 in buff nickels is luster. The other attributes are important too, but luster makes or breaks it.
You could very well be right, but I have taken into consideration the quality of the strike (including the details of the images and letters and the quality of the planchet), the absence or presence of bag marks and other imperfections, luster, etc. I have not seen an MS 68 for which I would trade the MS 67 that I was fortunate to get at a great price.
I believed this one grades MS69 with a scant scrape up by the mint mark, a hit on a window and a hidden mark on the obverse. The #1 registry set buyer did find it. Stated it was the best he'd ever seen. Somehow ended up in a NGC MS68 holder, 1 of only 2 they've ever graded that high. I even tried buying it back when it showed up in a Heritage auction. Very nice coin although the strike, believe it or not, could have been a smidge stronger.
In this picture was able to capture the lavender toning.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
^Beautiful, but PCGS got the grade right at 67.
I don’t think a coin of that type is likely to grade 68 (or higher) unless it exhibits great color and/or truly exceptional luster. And I don’t see either on that example.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I wasn't questioning PCGS. I'm just puzzled why certain coins are graded higher.
Thanks for the input. I am puzzled that color is so highly regarded. Although it can be attractive, color is actually a defect from the original mint state. The bottom line to me is that the coin itself, rather than the grade, is what matters to me.
@cinclodes @ricko OK ricko, based on the statement from cinclodes "Although it can be attractive, color is actually a defect from the original mint state." we now know one of your alts!!
Cinclodes: I'm just kidding. Ricko shares your preference for untoned coins and has let us know about this once or twice (or maybe it was several thousand...I've lost count.
)
I’ve been told luster rules when it comes to grading I also hear a coin with nice colors get a bonus. I don’t know how much of that is true but I do love toned or color on coind I’ve seen many 100+ year old coins that are blast white it doesn’t look right to me, it’s just not my thing to each his own
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
I actually like some toned coins. My only point is that, technically, toning is a defect relative to the original mint state.
Could not disagree more.
Until I started searching for a pristine Buffalo Nickel, I wasn't aware that toning plays any role in grading. I'm a firm believer in "to each his own," but I think it was a mistake to ever go down that road. It would be one thing to make the decision to not decrease the grade of a coin if it is toned, but I think it is wrong to increase the grade on the basis of toning. Considering the huge premiums that such coins bring (the price of a Buffalo Nickel goes from about $200 in MS 67 to close to $10,000 in MS 68), I would bet there would be a civil war if there were ever a proposal to change this policy. Way too much vested interest. Probably fortunes for some collectors.
Toning is part of eye-appeal which, like it or not, is a major component of grading - particularly for coins graded 60 and higher.
At least a few NGC MS68 1938-D nickels have sold for less than $3000.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Breaking 69 plastic is hard to do..I have an old ANACS 1941P merc in 69 with stoopid colors and a 45s merc in 69 from the NGC hoard that went up on Teletrade decades ago...I can’t bring myself to break the plastic... Some day they will be in the FUN Auction.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
"My only point is that, technically, toning is a defect relative to the original mint state."
How do you define "defect relative to the original mint state" ? Are you making the same argument that Weimar White clings too? If a coin is not white (untoned) it should not be considered mint state because it was white (untoned) when it was struck. His radical opinion makes no sense despite his attempts to explain possible storage methods that might have prevented early silver coins from toning.
The probability of these early silver coins being stored in a vacuum like environment that would prevent natural toning from the middle of the 19th century until today is extremely low.
Please read Greg Reynolds article entitled “The Basis for Collecting and Appreciating Naturally Toned Coins” I hope you're able to keep an open mind and leaning something new.
Lots of strong statements there. I must have touched a nerve. My only point is that toning is a change in a coin relative to the mint state. Sort of like rusting out is a change relative to the original state of a 1974 Chevy Vega. Toning can be attractive in many cases, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a change from the original mint state.
While growing up in the 1960s, I was always on the lookout for Buffalo nickels. I had a deal with the driver of the local ice cream truck to keep an eye out for them. I found some good dates, but never a 1938 D.
Yes, it's a change, but it's much more than just a change. It's an inevitable change due to the environment and the methods used to store early silver coins. Did you read the article?
Yes, I did. Excellent article. I agree with everything in it. That article confirmed something that came to mind while participating in this discussion here: the concern that some might try to fake toning.
Here Hear now! You saved me from posting what you just did.
I totally agree. The pinpoint detail just is not there in 1938.
Pete
If your comment was about 1938-D's as a date and not just that one coin, I disagree about that being a reason for no MS69's having been graded. There are certainly enough 68's out there, despite "the pinpoint detail just is not there in 1938." I don't think strike is necessarily the limiting factor.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Cool, I agree that artificial toning is a concern.