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1916 Buff that's extremly hammered

crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,074 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited July 21, 2019 12:51PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Going through my collection this morning I always pause at this 16 Buff. I am amazed that the strike is so bold and the details are needle sharp. I have a few 16 Buffs but this one here is a standout. At any rate I figured I'd show it. All comments are welcome.
Thanks for looking and happy hunting, Joe

The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.

Comments

  • KccoinKccoin Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    wow, that sure is a nice buff!

  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very nice.

    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yep-that's a nice one! Looks to be 100% there.

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 29,487 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice I like

  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,074 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks,
    I wonder if a Buff like this would receive a PL designation? The rims are sharp inside and out and the surfaces have a matte look to them. Anyways just a thought.

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Matteprooflike?

  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,074 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @koynekwest said:
    Matteprooflike?

    Kinda looks that way to me, Ron.

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,074 ✭✭✭✭✭

    With the new PL designation with PCGS graded coins I'm looking at my set.

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • divecchiadivecchia Posts: 6,693 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, that looks like a sharp strike for sure.

    Donato

    Hobbyist & Collector (not an investor).
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  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And the luster is nothing to sneeze at either!

    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • CCDollarCCDollar Posts: 758 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice photo too...

    CC

    Nickel Triumph...My Led Zepps
  • jabbajabba Posts: 3,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is hammer time


    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923

    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,808 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Excellent Buff Joe!
    I always enjoy seeing gems like this from your collection!

    Collector, occasional seller

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,439 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beautiful piece. ;)

    Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 9,805 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice one, Joe!! B)

    Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • PickwickjrPickwickjr Posts: 557 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow
    What a great looking coin.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It does have the finish of a matte proof-maybe struck from a MP die after it was used to strike the proofs and on a production press?

  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,074 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2019 1:11PM

    @koynekwest said:
    It does have the finish of a matte proof-maybe struck from a MP die after it was used to strike the proofs and on a production press?

    Because of it's strike & details along with mainly the rims on the inside of this buff It sure looks to be PL. I would tend to agree it might have been stuck with fresh matte proof dies. Comparing it to my 16 proof the details on the coin I'm showing you almost has it beat. When I pulled this one out today, going through my collection, I did take pause and even imaged it up to the size of a dinner plate to get an even better look. I'm just super impressed with this 16 more so than just about any other business strike of the same date I've handled. Like I said the details are amazing. Yes as you can see from the images the surfaces have a matte look to them. Do you agree, Ron?

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, Joe-I agree for the most part. However, it would have been struck from a used proof die once it was done striking proofs. I think this was a routine practice. There would be no sense in discarding a perfectly good die.

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,282 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beautiful example Joe, I think I can see the pupil in Black Diamond's eye. :)

  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,074 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2019 2:33PM

    @koynekwest said:
    Yes, Joe-I agree for the most part. However, it would have been struck from a used proof die once it was done striking proofs. I think this was a routine practice. There would be no sense in discarding a perfectly good die.

    If they were fresh proof dies it’d be a proof😂. I meant to say after striking proofs with them of course. Fresh for business strikes.

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @crazyhounddog said:
    Thanks,
    I wonder if a Buff like this would receive a PL designation? The rims are sharp inside and out and the surfaces have a matte look to them. Anyways just a thought.

    I am pretty sure that neither pcgs or ngc do that -- yet.
    Maybe that could be added as, say a purple bean for a fee!

    (a big fee which is a feeeeeeee)

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now I understand, Joe!

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @crazyhounddog said:
    With the new PL designation with PCGS graded coins I'm looking at my set.

    The PL designation requires mirrored fields. Unless PCGS completely changes the criteria, it won't give you a designation. The coin in this thread is beautiful, well struck, and an early strike, but it is not PL.

  • 1Bufffan1Bufffan Posts: 675 ✭✭✭✭

    That is a Great looking Buff, it must have been a good press operator to have everything set right when this one got struck. not mushy, set just right for a fully struck nice alloy mix planchet, which a lot of them did not have, to bad some of the ones struck in the 20's weren't struck like this, wouldn't you like to see a 24-s or 24-d and or a 26- s or26-d struck that way?? I sure would but I could only look at it, the price would be to high to own..

  • ECHOESECHOES Posts: 2,974 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @crazyhounddog said:
    Going through my collection this morning I always pause at this 16 Buff. I am amazed that the strike is so bold and the details are needle sharp. I have a few 16 Buffs but this one here is a standout. At any rate I figured I'd show it. All comments are welcome.
    Thanks for looking and happy hunting, Joe

    Beautiful... :#

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  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1Bufffan said:
    That is a Great looking Buff, it must have been a good press operator to have everything set right when this one got struck. not mushy, set just right for a fully struck nice alloy mix planchet, which a lot of them did not have, to bad some of the ones struck in the 20's weren't struck like this, wouldn't you like to see a 24-s or 24-d and or a 26- s or26-d struck that way?? I sure would but I could only look at it, the price would be to high to own..

    "Mushy" strikes were more the fault of the use of dies far past their usable life. Weak strikes are more often a lack of detail in select areas, especially (but not limited to) those of opposing high relief. The first coin below is from a worn die and the second is from a weak strike. This may be most easily seen in some of the low relief detail, such as the bison's face.

  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,074 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Can anyone here tell me what the die marker is for a 16 proof buff? My library got burned down.

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd have to have a good, close look at mine but I can't for a couple of days since it's at the bank. If you can see at least part of the edges on your coin that may tell you.

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 11,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Super nice example!!

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,074 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @koynekwest said:
    I'd have to have a good, close look at mine but I can't for a couple of days since it's at the bank. If you can see at least part of the edges on your coin that may tell you.

    I have one but I can hardly see any difference from my proof the this Buff I’m showing. Just wondering what the diagnostics are for a 16 proof if there are any. No I cannot access the outside of the rim to see if it’s polished due to its in a holder.

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • SkyManSkyMan Posts: 9,544 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pretty!

    Toned Franklins

    U.S. Type Set
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Joe-can you get a peek at the edge looking at the gaps of the gasket? It looks like the edge should
    be visible there if you tilt the slab at an angle.

    I have a very deceptive circ strike that I had PCGS look at again just to make sure. They've called it a circ strike twice. Here it is. If there ever was a circulation strike with matte proof surfaces this is it. The strike is certainly there. The rims are nice and wide, too but it's the edge that differentiates it. I bought it back in the mid eighties thinking it WAS a MP. The surfaces of this coin make me believe that MP dies were used to strike circ coins. See also the "Type B" Wash 25c.

  • DiggerJimDiggerJim Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭

    I am not a Buffalo Nickel collector but when I see a thread started by @crazyhounddog I always open it. Because I know I will see the most beautiful specimens out there. Can’t take my eyes off of them.

    DiggerJim

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  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is an impressive Buff... truly one that fully shows the beauty of the design. Why not send it in for reconsideration now that the PL designation is available? Just a suggestion... It is a fantastic coin no matter what the label says... Cheers, RickO

  • jabbajabba Posts: 3,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019 6:47AM

    The brother to Joes hammer time Buffalo 🐃
    The Obverse is not as hammered but the reverse is sweet!
    You the man Joe!


    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923

    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923

  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @crazyhounddog said:
    Can anyone here tell me what the die marker is for a 16 proof buff? My library got burned down.

    It look like a really nice business strike that has really been hammered out by fresh dies.

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    That is an impressive Buff... truly one that fully shows the beauty of the design. Why not send it in for reconsideration now that the PL designation is available? Just a suggestion... It is a fantastic coin no matter what the label says... Cheers, RickO

    I doubt pcgs will be giving out matte proof-like to Lincoln cents and buffalo nickels. but hey I could be wrong!
    I thought this proof-like tag would only go to brilliant proof likes.

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,074 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019 1:22PM

    Lets compare, shall we....Here is a proof 16 from my collection I was going to share but I guess now will be a good time for that.




    My conclusion is they were both struck with the same exact dies. Notice the build up next to the rim above "ICA" of America on the reverse. Many other similarity's here. Just look how the coin was exactly centered for the strike, same as the proof. Coincidence? Is the one in the MS holder a proof? I think I'm making a strong case here. Looks to me like it's a possibility. If not then it's the strongest example of a proof like buff I've ever seen.
    After reading the full breakdown on the proof designation by PCGS I suppose I was mistaken. It is deceiving to the point to where they are not offering it to all US coins, Metals and tokens. My mistake but that's how it reads in the title but you must read on.
    I'm hoping some Buffalo nickel experts will chime in with their take on this.

    Thank you for you participation, Joe

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,808 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They definitely share an obverse die, take a look at the die scratches in front of the chin. I haven't found any markers on the reverse yet.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • jabbajabba Posts: 3,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you could pull the tone on of the top I believe it qualifys as a proof. Like others comments I believe it’s got to be one of the first few MS ran on proof dies when they finished the run of proofs why throw away perfectly good dies that have a lot of life left


    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923

    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923

  • jabbajabba Posts: 3,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    BTW very nice proof Joe👍


    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923

    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,808 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is a little line above the I in America that matches reverse

    Collector, occasional seller

  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,600 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good detective work from the brain trust!

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  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Awesome coins!

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  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,074 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019 1:24PM

    @ChrisH821 said:
    They definitely share an obverse die, take a look at the die scratches in front of the chin. I haven't found any markers on the reverse yet.

    I was waiting for someone to point that out other than me. You have a great eye my friend👍🏻
    Yes it is a match, solid as can be.
    I’d like to go on to say I have had MANY offers on this MS Buff but I’ve always seen it as a standout in so many ways, 16 Buffs they are short and far in between with needle sharp details like this. There has GOT to be a reason for seasoned buffalo nickel collectors to offer me stupid money for this coin 😂. Not for sale.

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,074 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019 11:22AM

    How bout that mark from the rim to just above the Buffalos’ tail? Looks like a match to me among others.

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • clarkbar04clarkbar04 Posts: 5,006 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now if you ask me (and nobody ever does!) the rims on the proof are thicker still than the other in the MS holder, so I'd lean towards business strike from discarded proof dies. But, if it were mine I'd have a tough time NOT cracking that thing out to inspect the rims.

    MS66 taste on an MS63 budget.
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think you are correct about the rims, Jeremy. There is an obvious difference.

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 12,657 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sho-nuf CHD!

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