Die Breaks on gold?

Leeroybrown · July 13, 2019 7:39PM

Are die breaks common on gold the same as they are on many silver coins?

See an example below:

Would love thoughts...

Leeroybrown · July 13, 2019 8:07PM

Here is one more pic showing all the crazy breaks everywhere on reverse...

jwitten · July 13, 2019 9:01PM

I've had several $2 1/2's with them. Mostly Libertys, but a few on Indians as well.

Leeroybrown · July 14, 2019 1:06AM

These die breaks are actually on a $20 type II. Anybody ever seen a die break on a $20 gold piece?

ReadyFireAim · July 14, 2019 1:14AM

Quite common on saints.
Often through the word liberty.

ricko · July 14, 2019 5:03AM

They are fairly common on older gold coins, except not so much on proof or modern gold.... At least that is what I have seen....Cheers, RickO

tommy44 · July 14, 2019 9:38AM

I have several $5 Libs with die cracks. Thinking it is quite common.

LanLord · July 14, 2019 9:57AM

I have a 1922 St Gaudens DE with that the closer I look the more it looks like road atlas.

Lots of cracks on that soft metal.

Wahoo554 · July 14, 2019 10:53AM

Here’s a cool obverse die crack:

jabba · July 14, 2019 11:16AM

Melt temp on gold is higher so it takes more PSI to press that’s a lot more stress on the dies so you should see a higher percentage of die cracks.

jwitten · July 14, 2019 11:30AM

@jabba said:
Melt temp on gold is higher so it takes more PSI to press that’s a lot more stress on the dies so you should see a higher percentage of die cracks.

Wait, what? Wouldn't it need less pressure to strike since gold is so soft?

messydesk · July 14, 2019 12:07PM

@jwitten said:

@jabba said:
Melt temp on gold is higher so it takes more PSI to press that’s a lot more stress on the dies so you should see a higher percentage of die cracks.

Wait, what? Wouldn't it need less pressure to strike since gold is so soft?

It's much more dense than silver, and in an alloy, not terribly soft.

RogerB · July 14, 2019 12:37PM

Standard coin gold differs little in hardness from standard coin silver.

In researching the Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle book to quickly became evident that die cracks and breaks were just as common as on other coins of similar size. However, gold seemed to be inspected with a little more care than silver or minor coins.

Leeroybrown · July 14, 2019 1:20PM

Does anybody have an example of a type I or type II to show?

Leeroybrown · July 14, 2019 2:06PM

What are thoughts on die breaks effecting quality and/ or a cac sticker on a gold coin?

asheland · July 14, 2019 2:13PM

My $5:
A few on the reverse:

CharlotteDude · July 14, 2019 2:26PM

The reverse die cracked during coining operations of this Charlotte Half Eagle, bisecting the reverse from 10:30 to 4:30... essentially splitting it in half.

Crusty · July 14, 2019 2:32PM

Leeroy

The die breaks on your $20 Lib are pretty dramatic. I love the character it adds to the coin. Can’t recall seeing another $20 gold lib with breaks like that. What’s the date/mint it came from?

Wahoo554 · July 14, 2019 5:05PM

My impression is that they don’t have a negative effect on CAC. The 1798 $5 I posted is CAC’d just as an example.

@Leeroybrown said:
What are thoughts on die breaks effecting quality and/ or a cac sticker on a gold coin?

BloodMan · July 15, 2019 4:51PM

@Leeroybrown said:
Does anybody have an example of a type I or type II to show?

This 1875-S $20 has die cracks around the reverse peripheral lettering. A few images are below.

oldgoldlover · July 15, 2019 9:10PM

@messydesk said:

@jwitten said:

@jabba said:
Melt temp on gold is higher so it takes more PSI to press that’s a lot more stress on the dies so you should see a higher percentage of die cracks.

Wait, what? Wouldn't it need less pressure to strike since gold is so soft?

It's much more dense than silver, and in an alloy, not terribly soft.

There are only two things I don't like about gold coins.

1 They are soft and very prone to being heavily scratched and bag marked.

2 The ones I like most are the hard ones to afford.

oldgoldlover · July 15, 2019 9:11PM

The three leg buffalo has a crack at about seven o'clock on the obverse. Nickel is a tough metal and rough on dies.

Oldhoopster · July 16, 2019 7:11AM

@oldgoldlover said:

@messydesk said:

@jwitten said:

@jabba said:
Melt temp on gold is higher so it takes more PSI to press that’s a lot more stress on the dies so you should see a higher percentage of die cracks.

Wait, what? Wouldn't it need less pressure to strike since gold is so soft?

It's much more dense than silver, and in an alloy, not terribly soft.

There are only two things I don't like about gold coins.

1 They are soft and very prone to being heavily scratched and bag marked.

2 The ones I like most are the hard ones to afford.

Actually, Gold and silver coinage alloys have a similar hardness. I did a quick search and found the following:

Vickers hardness (Hv)

Sterling silver (0.925) = 65-70 Hv
22KT Au (0.917) = 70-75 Hv

I didn't find the values for 0.900 coinage alloys but would expect they would similar. There may be some minor differences depending on the composition of the alloying metals as well.

@RogerB also commented on this in an earlier post to this thread

Leeroybrown · July 16, 2019 11:42AM

Sweet 1875-s Bloodman !!

Leeroybrown · July 16, 2019 11:46AM

Crusty,

Per your request, see pics of the piece related to the discussion below:

Would love to know thoughts on grade and quality...

CaptHenway · July 16, 2019 4:37PM

Die cracks are not rare on pre-1933 U.S.gold coins.
Gold is dense AND Gold is relatively soft. Ditto lead. One does not determine the other.

ReadyFireAim · July 16, 2019 5:07PM

For saints, why are they usually 12 O'clock on the front & 9 O'clock on the reverse?

Die crack on reverse called "nest-builder" because eagle appears to be carrying a piece of straw vertically.
(You may not be able to see it in small photo but I can't figure out how to blow it up)

Insider2 · July 16, 2019 5:31PM

Die breaks can be used for authentication and grading.

ReadyFireAim · July 16, 2019 5:33PM

@Insider2 said:
Die breaks can be used for authentication and grading

Like the famous 1927-D saint

Most, but not all, existing specimens were struck from the same pair of dies with the following characteristics. Obverse: >Thin hairline die crack from star to star at the top of the L in LIBERTY. Another thin die crack running from the base of the L >to the torch. Reverse: Thin vertical die scratch through the eagle's beak. A 1927-D with these characteristics is undoubtedly >genuine. However, a specimen without these characteristics is not necessarily a fake because it may have been struck from >one of the other pairs of dies used.

PerryHall · July 16, 2019 5:37PM

@Insider2 said:
Die breaks can be used for authentication and grading.

Did you mean die cracks or die breaks (cuds) and how are they used to grade coins?

Insider2 · July 16, 2019 5:39PM

@PerryHall said:

@Insider2 said:
Die breaks can be used for authentication and grading.

Did you mean die cracks or die breaks (cuds) and how are they used to grade coins?

I use the two terms interchangeably. When a die breaks, it is usually in the form of a crack (or chip) except in sudden failures.

When a die crack goes over the relief of a coin it is first to show wear before the design it crosses. Example: wreath on Indian cents.

PerryHall · July 16, 2019 5:47PM

@Insider2 said:

@PerryHall said:

@Insider2 said:
Die breaks can be used for authentication and grading.

Did you mean die cracks or die breaks (cuds) and how are they used to grade coins?

I use the two terms interchangeably. When a die breaks, it is usually in the form of a crack (or chip) except in sudden failures.

We'll have to disagree on that. A die crack is a raised line on a coin from a crack in the die that struck the coin while a die break is a missing part of the design on the coin due to a piece of the die that has broken away. It's also commonly called a cud.

Insider2 · July 16, 2019 6:21PM

@PerryHall said:

@Insider2 said:

@PerryHall said:

@Insider2 said:
Die breaks can be used for authentication and grading.

Did you mean die cracks or die breaks (cuds) and how are they used to grade coins?

I use the two terms interchangeably. When a die breaks, it is usually in the form of a crack (or chip) except in sudden failures.

We'll have to disagree on that. A die crack is a raised line on a coin from a crack in the die that struck the coin while a die break is a missing part of the design on the coin due to a piece of the die that has broken away. It's also commonly called a cud.

I guess it all depends on how old a person is, how long they have been collecting, and where they get their information. I'll suggest you may change your opinion with a little reading. I've just consulted four reference books and will not change my original statement: I use the two terms interchangeably. When a die breaks, it is usually in the form of a crack (or chip) except in sudden failures.

PS I try not to use the word "Cud" anymore. That's the term I used for a major die break at the rim but it has fallen out of favor with NEWmismatists.

PerryHall · July 17, 2019 2:52AM

@Insider2 said:

@PerryHall said:

@Insider2 said:

@PerryHall said:

@Insider2 said:
Die breaks can be used for authentication and grading.

Did you mean die cracks or die breaks (cuds) and how are they used to grade coins?

I use the two terms interchangeably. When a die breaks, it is usually in the form of a crack (or chip) except in sudden failures.

We'll have to disagree on that. A die crack is a raised line on a coin from a crack in the die that struck the coin while a die break is a missing part of the design on the coin due to a piece of the die that has broken away. It's also commonly called a cud.

I guess it all depends on how old a person is, how long they have been collecting, and where they get their information. I'll suggest you may change your opinion with a little reading. I've just consulted four reference books and will not change my original statement: I use the two terms interchangeably. When a die breaks, it is usually in the form of a crack (or chip) except in sudden failures.

PS I try not to use the word "Cud" anymore. That's the term I used for a major die break at the rim but it has fallen out of favor with NEWmismatists.

I've been a serious collector of coins for many decades and a voracious reader of numismatic literature including your most excellent column in Numismatic News so I'm not exactly new to this hobby. As everything in life, numismatic terminology evolves. I remember when the hobby called a coin "Uncirculated" or "BU" rather than "Mint State". I remember when some collectors referred to "die clashes" as being "die suction" which is pure nonsense. I'm glad to see the term "cud" is now seldom used anymore to refer to a die break. Of course, you can use any terminology that you choose but from what I've read there is a difference between a crack and a break and it makes sense to me that there would be two separate terms to differentiate these two different die states.

Die Breaks on gold?

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