What grade did I receive on this? Update: originally labeled MS64, now SP68. Thanks for fix, PCGS!
Goldminers
Posts: 4,360 ✭✭✭✭✭
What do you think this 8.54 ounce D1978-1a antique finish .925 silver Valley Forge US medal 3 inch Philadelphia Mint 1978 should grade, based on this TrueView?
I would like serious comments on what is, or might be wrong with this medal? Note that the TrueView picture can be zoomed in REALLY close.
I think it would be beneficial if our hosts would document all grader's comments about a given coin/medal submitted. This should be part of an archived database.
If a submitter/member who owns the coins being submitted asks for a detailed reason for a grade, it should be provided. Not for everyone, but only to the individual member who submitted the coin.
This would help advance the hobby, as transparency is important, as is knowledge. If I think something is nice and the graders don't. How can I learn what I am missing without some type of explanation?
Thanks.
Comments
I’m not familiar with this coin. But, I feel the fields and rims look perfect. The wear on the high points look minimal for a forty year old coin. And with the lack of any dings I would give this a 66-67. But of course I am a beginner at grading.
Very beautiful coin.
DiggerJim
BST transactions - mach1ne - Ronyahski - pitboss (x2) - Bigbuck1975 (x2) - jimineez1 - nk1nk - bidask - WaterSport - logger7 - SurfinxHI (x2) - Smittys - Bennybravo - Proofcollector
I see no major marks or problems,
Looks like antiqued bronze to me but you said it was silver so I guess I know nothing.
so I will say MS 66 and let it go
I do not know what these are supposed to look like, but the rim edge looks sandblasted. I will guess MS/AU details altered surface.
I would lay money that it was called cleaned. The lighter color on the exposed fields versus the darker color on the protected areas (i.e. lettering) would lead them in this direction.
Couple of quick observations:
-appears to be “t” scratched/marked around 11 between the stars
-hairline scratches running along the perimeter of the rim and more at around 2
Marked in yellow.
Original
Eyes tired...
It is an antique finish. But Hemi has pointed out some possibilities. So thanks, but still how much penalty for that which we see
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Not sure I feel comfortable even hazarding a guess since this is the first time I've ever seen one. (And I'm probably not alone).
I don’t know what a superb one is supposed to look like. But the darker protected area around the reverse letters makes me wonder if the piece has been cleaned.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have not seen that medal before.... On initial viewing, it looks good... but careful examination reveals the questionable areas noted above....Detailed reports by the graders will only increase the cost of grading.... Cheers, RickO
I looked a few up and see that they came in sealed plastic on many. I like this coin and I see some have different looks and variety with sword bend and the fading in house. I like the coin and if your unhappy call and have them explain it to you.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
I would've missed the above anomalies. Maybe if you view the medal under UV or a different type of lighting, more would be revealed. I would've said SP-69, shot 70.
I knew it would happen.
I did write our hosts two weeks ago but received no answer, and so called our hosts yesterday in disbelief and received no explanation other than the graders all looked at it and that is the grade.
It is certificate 37600064 and it is now in a $50 oversized and now unwanted population 1 slab with a MS64 label on it.
I felt this medal was a SP69 when I sent it in. I took it out of the plastic it was sealed in from the mint when I sent it in.
I was told I can always send it in again and pay for reconsideration.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I don't see any rub, but that would be seen better in person. I think the medal is as struck.
I knew it would happen.
The dark tone in the letters, could that be a result from Antiquing the sterling?
There's the rub.
More seriously though, look at it under a point light and see what pops out. My guess is some rogue hairlines will show up that weren't visible under other lighting. Probably mishandled in packaging dept. at the mint but not bad enough to details it.
Antique finish is supposed to be darker in the protected areas.
Collector, occasional seller
The only thing I can think of is that, for a medal that got special handling from the moment struck, they probably "stretch out" the grading curve, to some extent. With all of them starting at what would probably be a 68+ if it were, say, a Morgan, they suddenly drop significantly with a single mark or distraction? Guess the task is to find that distraction.....
I did notice a couple of pin holes/marks below the highest star in front of Washington. They look as though they may be "as made"....but if they are attempting to create a hierarchy of "best to worst", maybe that was significant enough to make it a 64(?)
Safe to say they don't have a ton of experience with them, either, and it might take an unexpected flood of grading events to shake out the grading curve.
Yes, after comments above and using different light, I can see very faint hairlines when angled exactly in one specific way with full bright sunlight using a 6X magnifying glass, so it may have been wiped off by some rogue.
A good example of why coins/medals probably can't be graded correctly by a photo alone. So another lesson learned, that just because it is sealed in what I thought was original mint soft plastic, does not necessarily mean it is untouched.
Time to get out the hacksaw. I never tried to breakout one of these huge 1 inch thick, oversize holders. Might need a vice or sledgehammer.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
My opinion is that PCGS tends to grade medals like they would coins. But because medals have such a variety of finishes and striking methods and do not circulate like coins do, that does not result in accurate grading. Not to mention, medals like this are 3 inches in diameter!
I have submitted many large medals to PCGS, several modern examples like this one, also in silver, and I rarely agree with their opinion on grade.
Hairlines on these medals are very common, although they are not due to cleaning. They may have something to do with the way the surfaces were finished at the mint, and or moving around in the sealed plastic bags that they come in. However this is an exceptional medal. It should not have graded that low, even with a few small hairlines.
That would be wonderful. No chance it will ever happen, but it would be nice. Who knows ... an archived database may exist, just not for public consumption. At larger shows TPGs will often set up and offer free opinions. That's when you can ask a grader a direct question ... then you document the answer.
How much are you willing to pay for the service? It will take longer to document a detailed reason for a grade that it will take to grade the coin. As such, there is little practical benefit to a business without the corresponding increase in revenue.
You can learn by taking grading courses (from your local club or the ANA). You can take your coins to experts and ask their options. TGPs are not educational organizations and they are not altruistic organizations, they are service providers. You pay for an opinion, not an education.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Good points @astrorat I also imagine that the more specific they are with their grading opinions on individual coins, the more potential liability they incur when submitter's disagree.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Yes TPG's are here to provide a service and make money. That is American capitalism as it should be and I am even a CLCT stockholder. However, any publicly traded company benefits by keeping happy customers for the longevity of the business model.
I am not happy at the moment as if anyone would have just said it had hairline scratches when I asked, I would have been satisfied. I wrote two emails over two weeks and finally called, and never was told what was wrong with it until asking this forum and getting out my microscope.
These hairlines are extremely hard to see, and MS64 is just really punishing a nice looking old medal.
An SP64 label at least would have accounted for the special as minted finish, as it was one of only 1,999 minted 3-inch silver Valley Forge US Mint medals at the time.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
judging from the TV's it should surprise me for it to be anything other than MS68-69. the antique finish is a nice finish, hopefully the inconsistency in color isn't viewed as anything other than as made. the same with high point light color, that just seems to be how they always look(the color seems to "settle" in the low fields). if there are hairlines or imperfections they aren't visible to me although in the grading room they might be easily seen.
since you started the thread I am going to assume it is graded MS64.
Looking on desktop I noticed the following:
Reverse:
Ding in rim above A
Mark on rim at articles
Observe
minor marks Top right of highest star
rub at bottom of Observe
4 point diff No way, but it is in Gold star holder and only 2nd to be graded if I am seeing thing
on the site correct.
I think it should of been a 65
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Lots of opinions on this which is to be expected.
I personally think the graders may have graded this a MS/SP69 as the "hairline scratches" are nearly invisible and I have looked at this over and over and thought it was in the minimum 68-69 range when I sent it in.
I have hypothesized that the person typing the label saw the 64 at the end of the new certificate number (#37600064) and had a rough day and typed in MS64 for the grade too, instead of 69. Or maybe the 69 the graders wrote by hand? looked like a 64?
Darn, nothing is easy. I have been working on this US National Commemorative Philadelphia Mint medal set for a while and it is the hardest set I ever attempted. Lots of complications with label accuracy, grades are sometimes very confusing, and some medals are just near impossible to find.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Thanks for finding me a few more things for me to consider. All comments help me "see" better than before, and are appreciated. This is the only PCGS graded medal of the type in any grade.
All of my submissions for this US National Commemorative set are in PCGS Gold Shield with TrueView's as I am trying to get a historical, factual PCGS database of them, with pictures, in top condition as they are overlooked rarities as described in John T. Dean's 2012 book referenced for them.
This is my new quest. I thought this one looked really nice, but I do have another mint sealed one, and it is being graded now. We will see what happens in a couple weeks.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Hi @Goldminers, I have just sent you a message with my contact information. I would like to look into your reported lack of response from our customer service team but I am not finding anything on my end. Please let me know how I can help.
Heather Boyd
PCGS Senior Director of Marketing
My referenced e-mails have been forwarded. Thanks!
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I am actually surprised that any antiqued medal would qualify for a perfect (or near perfect) grade, considering what happens when a brilliant medal is turned into an antiqued one.
I am almost surprised that more of them don't get a details or at least a generic "authentic" grade. The pewter Bicentennial medals, for example, are so heavily polished and antiqued and rubbed for highlights that I would hate to hazard a grade on one of them.
The bottom line is that the OP's medal is an extremely attractive medal. It is too bad that it causes so much stress and unhappiness to not get the grade you wanted. The medal is the same beautiful one you submitted, but the paper insert in the slab is preventing you from enjoying it.
I do understand that you are focused on "pops" and such, so the old adage "buy the coin (medal) and not the holder" may not apply.
Why not leave it as is in the slab and if/when the way these medals are graded changes you can send for reconsideration then? In the meantime maybe someone will add a gold sticker to it.
Sad to say I had the same experience a couple years ago. I had an exceedingly rare modern error that needed a "conservation" bath before grading, but the submission form did not provide for that sequence of events for error coins. Three emails to customer service went unanswered, so I had to go ATS to get my coin into plastic.
I only mention it now because thankfully there is a new sheriff in town (HB) to help handle these sorts of issues.
Yes, I will follow your advice for now and leave it is as graded in the slab. I don't want the pops and top grades to increase from my single medal submitted over and over?!! LOL
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
My original grade just did not seem right so yes, I did do reconsideration with Heather's assistance and just today received the new grade.
The medal grade on the label and certificate was a MS64 before, and it now a SP68. That is now a grade I can understand.
Thanks, PCGS!!!!! for taking a second look. Thanks, @HeatherBoyd
for giving me a chance to get it looked at again.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Quite the change! Congrats! Did they say why they graded it so low the first time?
Well done making this right
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It’s a Beautiful Token/Coin what ever it is. I would be proud to own it for sure.
Great looking medal. Love the engraving. Nice upgrade too!
Well done by OP and PCGS.
I don’t think it’s practical for grading services to provide explanations for a grade. Grading would take much longer, it would be more expensive, and there could be potential liability issues.