Ok Half Dime Variety Experts.... 6/19/19 - BIG UPDATE!!

oih82w8 · March 2, 2018 7:33AM

Did you guys happen to see that NGC is making some changes on their VarietyPlus website? 1849/8 is NOT listed.

https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/half-dimes/4734/514353/

yosclimber · March 2, 2018 2:11PM

This is great news - it eliminates one of the prime sources of confusion.

ms70 · March 2, 2018 2:23PM

@oih82w8 said:
Did you guys happen to see that NGC is making some changes on their VarietyPlus website? 1849/8 is NOT listed.

https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/half-dimes/4734/514353/

So in other words the 1849/8 may not exist?

Is it known when NGC made that change?

yosclimber · March 2, 2018 5:30PM

It is just a (more accurate) change of labels for the V-2 and V-4 (also V-6 and V-5).
The old Redbook "9/8" is the V-4 (and V-5).
The registry variety sets will likely still include both V-2 and V-4 obverses, as they are fairly easy to see and distinctive.

ms70 · March 2, 2018 6:06PM

Just to clarify, the old Redbook "9/8" is actually the V-4 (and V-5) "9/6"?

yosclimber · March 2, 2018 8:50PM

Yes.

My suggested labels are:
V-2 (and V-6): "9 / Far 6"
V-4 (and V-5): "9 / Near 6"

CaptHenway · March 3, 2018 10:32AM

ttt

CaptHenway · March 3, 2018 4:42PM

The style of the 1846 date has a very fat 6, which could explain why the 1849 V-2 shows the underdate swinging way out to the right of the 9.

Could somebody please post a similar closeup of an 1848 just to show the style of the digits?

Thanks,
TD

yosclimber · March 3, 2018 4:51PM

1848 V-5 MS-66 PCGS CoinFacts ex-Simpson

1846 V-1 MS-62 PCGS CoinFacts

CaptHenway · March 3, 2018 6:05PM

Great, thanks!

ms70 · March 3, 2018 11:43PM

No updates from our host received personally by me yet...

ms70 · March 3, 2018 11:53PM

Just for the sake of this discussion, here's one that popped up on eBay as an 1849/6 :

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1849-6-1849-Over-6-Seated-Liberty-Half-Dime-90-Silver-PCGS-MS65-Template-Coin/142710152574?hash=item213a301d7e:g:Q6gAAOSwUgham3Sp

Here is it's cert page with a TrueView:

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/34953009

yosclimber · March 4, 2018 5:58AM

Almost all True Views show up in the CoinFacts list, including this one.
Checking the cert, I already attributed it as a V-6.

oih82w8 · March 7, 2018 10:01AM

@ms70 that eBay 1849/6 shares the same characteristics (die crack at the head, dot on the denticle at star seven and die chip on the top of the Phrygian cap) as the one I have which I am trying to resubmit to PCGS for variety attribution.

I am going to stop by the CONECA table at Irving on Friday, if they are there, and see what they think.

ms70 · March 10, 2018 5:18PM

Still in limbo. I'll e-mail or call next week... If I'm not buried in snow again.

CaptHenway · March 18, 2018 7:34AM

Have been corresponding with Fivaz, Stanton and Bowers. Will summarize after I have had more coffee.

In the meantime, there is one suggestion on the floor that the TPG's certify the two dies as "1849 Overdate. FS-301 (or 302)" and not state what the underdate is. Your thoughts?

How do they certify the 1824 over various dates half dollar?

ms70 · March 18, 2018 12:11PM

@CaptHenway said:
In the meantime, there is one suggestion on the floor that the TPG's certify the two dies as "1849 Overdate. FS-301 (or 302)" and not state what the underdate is. Your thoughts?

Personally I'm not a fan of that idea because then it just continues on as something to question and dispute. I'd prefer a conclusion otherwise it will never be put to rest. I think there's been an abundance of convincing evidence put forth to conclude it's a "6" under there.

ms70 · March 18, 2018 12:23PM

This post by Yosclimber is what I found to be most evidentiary of the underdigit being a 6.

@yosclimber said:
The "upside down 9" theory was tested. The inverted 9 is not the same shape as the 6 from 1846, so it does not produce the right shape for the under digit.
Another theory was that it was a sideways 9.
As it turns out, 1846 makes more sense than a repunched 9, because the Liberty Seated Half Dime dates were punched with a "gang punch" which has all 4 digits together. So if the 9 was upside down, the other 3 digits would be to the right. But they are to the left, with the remants of the old 4 under the new 4....
If single digit punches were used instead of a gang punch, then an inverted 9 could be feasible (except for the shape).
Here are the key images from Mark Sheldon's article, to make it a bit easier to compare then with the color photos above:

A similar overlay works for the V-2, where the 6 is lower.

ms70 · March 21, 2018 3:38AM

Received this e-mail today:

Good Afternoon Mr. ------------

I appreciate your concern in this matter and apologize for the late response to your message.

To my knowledge and based on the discussion thread on the forums — Mark Stephenson and our team of experts
are currently looking into it. Once there is a conclusion, a response will be published on the post.

Respectfully,

(PCGS Customer Service Rep)

ms70 · March 30, 2018 4:32PM

Anyone have anything yet?

oih82w8 · March 30, 2018 8:13PM

Nothing on this end.

CaptHenway · April 2, 2018 9:22AM

I remain utterly convinced that the two dies in question are both 1849/6. Not everybody agrees with me.

That said, I will compile a summary of my conversations with various people and post it here when I can.

TD

ms70 · April 2, 2018 10:53AM

@CaptHenway said:
I remain utterly convinced that the two dies in question are both 1849/6. Not everybody agrees with me.

That said, I will compile a summary of my conversations with various people and post it here when I can.

TD

I feel if PCGS can't come to a definitive conclusion and their bottom line is that the variety remains questionable, they should remove this particular variety from the registry. My hope is that they make a final determination. As I posted above, I too am convinced they are 49/6.

UPDATE: Going forward see this thread for updates:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/998039/update-on-my-emails-to-others-regarding-1849-half-dime-overdates#latest

asheland · April 2, 2018 11:51AM

Great thread!

oih82w8 · May 9, 2018 7:13AM

I can add another attributed (V-1 note the 184 touching the underside of the rock pedestal) to the listing;

Our host agreed on the variety 1849/6

oih82w8 · March 20, 2019 9:09PM

I did notice that ATS they are using the LDS in their descriptions;

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4239812-005/62/

Here are a couple more unattributed 1849/6;

(images by robec)

oih82w8 · April 18, 2019 3:40PM

I just received notice from the variety attribution dept that he did not see the markers required to identify the 1849/6 overdate variety;

(these images should be zoomable)

I asked the Customer Service representative if she would look at the trueviews for me and tell me if she saw anything. She described the curved lines in the loops, but she could not be definate, which is understandable. Frustrating is an understatement.

Do we know if @BrettPCGS is as interested in incorrect variety attribution as his predecessors?

ms70 · April 18, 2019 3:55PM

Refresh my memory- Was that reverse used in any other die marriage?

oih82w8 · April 18, 2019 3:56PM

Not that I am aware of (it's Reverse B )...Clint? @yosclimber

yosclimber · April 18, 2019 4:23PM

Both of @oih82w8's coins above are easily attributed as V-2 (9 / far 6).
Obverse 2:

date position of 4 relative to pendant
under digit lumps visible on top of 849
under digits visible within 849

Reverse B cracks:

right ribbon
UN D H T
TES tops
F left top
splits ME

[die pair table from my 1849 attribution guide]
Correct, this is reverse B and is only used with V-2.
Similarly, reverse F with crack from left ribbon to S1 is only used with V-4,
so often the simplest way to attribute V-2 or V-4 is to look for the crack at either right or left ribbon.

CaptHenway · April 18, 2019 5:02PM

Please tell the Customer Service rep to contact me.

oih82w8 · April 18, 2019 5:34PM

Lets see if this still works...

Paging @CustomerService please contact @CaptHenway

@HeatherBoyd is a "go getter" as well.

ms70 · April 18, 2019 7:19PM

I hope they didn't already put them in the mail.

oih82w8 · April 18, 2019 7:26PM

@ms70 said:
I hope they didn't already put them in the mail.

When I called earlier this evening...the CS representative said that the package has left the mail room.

ms70 · April 18, 2019 7:29PM

@oih82w8 said:

@ms70 said:
I hope they didn't already put them in the mail.

When I called earlier this evening...the CS representative said that the package has left the mail room.

Crud. Even if PCGS decides to look at them again you still get crushed in the shipping fees.

oih82w8 · April 18, 2019 7:51PM

With the predecessors, when shipping coins back for an "oversight revist", the shipping was reimbursed.

oih82w8 · April 22, 2019 4:43AM

No responses back from our host over the Easter weekend...perhaps some traction will be found today.

oih82w8 · May 1, 2019 9:20PM

@CaptHenway were you contacted by @CustomerService ? Neither @BrettPCGS or @HeatherBoyd have chimed in on this as of this message.

CaptHenway · May 2, 2019 4:42PM

Just got out of the hospital. Give me a day or two to catch up on things.

CaptHenway · May 3, 2019 10:29AM

I have been contacted by Heather as a direct result of this thread. We are discussing the issue.

oih82w8 · May 3, 2019 11:42AM

@CaptHenway said:
Just got out of the hospital. Give me a day or two to catch up on things.

Be well @CaptHenway !

oih82w8 · May 22, 2019 8:19AM

Does anyone have anything new on this subject?

CaptHenway · June 19, 2019 9:10AM

I have confirmation from Bill Fivaz that the former 1849/8 V-4 FS-301 will now be listed in CPG 6/2 as 1849/6 FS-301a,
and the former 1849/8 V-2 FS-302 will now be listed as 1849/6 FS-302a.

TD

oih82w8 · June 19, 2019 9:23AM

Should the variety be acknowledged with a certain amount of detail; EDS, LDS, etc... like ATS?

CaptHenway · June 19, 2019 9:25AM

@oih82w8 said:
Should the variety be acknowledged with a certain amount of detail; EDS, LDS, etc... like ATS?

In my opinion they should be, as the differences are quite significant.

oih82w8 · June 19, 2019 9:29AM

Hopefully our host will acknowledge the Pick-up points, OBV and REV, that Clint @yosclimber has in his identification guide.

yosclimber · June 19, 2019 2:03PM

@CaptHenway said:
I have confirmation from Bill Fivaz that the former 1849/8 V-4 FS-301 will now be listed in CPG 6/2 as 1849/6 FS-301a,
and the former 1849/8 V-2 FS-302 will now be listed as 1849/6 FS-302a.

Wow, this is great news!
Thank you for all your persistent and effective work which has had this important success!
It was a long standing problem that needed to be fixed.
@MrHalfDime would be smiling to see this finally corrected!
I believe we can be assured that PCGS will follow the CPG on this as well.

CaptHenway · June 19, 2019 4:01PM

You are welcome. It only took me about 40 years........

ms70 · June 19, 2019 5:06PM

@yosclimber said:
I believe we can be assured that PCGS will follow the CPG on this as well.

I have one in a slab that's been sitting in my desk for a long time just waiting for that to happen.

oih82w8 · June 19, 2019 7:24PM

@ms70 said:

@yosclimber said:
I believe we can be assured that PCGS will follow the CPG on this as well.

I have one in a slab that's been sitting in my desk for a long time just waiting for that to happen.

Same here...two actually, although the PCGS variety attributor said that he did not see the pick-up points.

Ok Half Dime Variety Experts.... 6/19/19 - BIG UPDATE!!

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