It is just a (more accurate) change of labels for the V-2 and V-4 (also V-6 and V-5).
The old Redbook "9/8" is the V-4 (and V-5).
The registry variety sets will likely still include both V-2 and V-4 obverses, as they are fairly easy to see and distinctive.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
The style of the 1846 date has a very fat 6, which could explain why the 1849 V-2 shows the underdate swinging way out to the right of the 9.
Could somebody please post a similar closeup of an 1848 just to show the style of the digits?
Thanks,
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@ms70 that eBay 1849/6 shares the same characteristics (die crack at the head, dot on the denticle at star seven and die chip on the top of the Phrygian cap) as the one I have which I am trying to resubmit to PCGS for variety attribution.
I am going to stop by the CONECA table at Irving on Friday, if they are there, and see what they think.
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
Have been corresponding with Fivaz, Stanton and Bowers. Will summarize after I have had more coffee.
In the meantime, there is one suggestion on the floor that the TPG's certify the two dies as "1849 Overdate. FS-301 (or 302)" and not state what the underdate is. Your thoughts?
How do they certify the 1824 over various dates half dollar?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
In the meantime, there is one suggestion on the floor that the TPG's certify the two dies as "1849 Overdate. FS-301 (or 302)" and not state what the underdate is. Your thoughts?
Personally I'm not a fan of that idea because then it just continues on as something to question and dispute. I'd prefer a conclusion otherwise it will never be put to rest. I think there's been an abundance of convincing evidence put forth to conclude it's a "6" under there.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
This post by Yosclimber is what I found to be most evidentiary of the underdigit being a 6.
@yosclimber said:
The "upside down 9" theory was tested. The inverted 9 is not the same shape as the 6 from 1846, so it does not produce the right shape for the under digit.
Another theory was that it was a sideways 9.
As it turns out, 1846 makes more sense than a repunched 9, because the Liberty Seated Half Dime dates were punched with a "gang punch" which has all 4 digits together. So if the 9 was upside down, the other 3 digits would be to the right. But they are to the left, with the remants of the old 4 under the new 4....
If single digit punches were used instead of a gang punch, then an inverted 9 could be feasible (except for the shape).
Here are the key images from Mark Sheldon's article, to make it a bit easier to compare then with the color photos above:
A similar overlay works for the V-2, where the 6 is lower.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I appreciate your concern in this matter and apologize for the late response to your message.
To my knowledge and based on the discussion thread on the forums — Mark Stephenson and our team of experts
are currently looking into it. Once there is a conclusion, a response will be published on the post.
Respectfully,
(PCGS Customer Service Rep)
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I remain utterly convinced that the two dies in question are both 1849/6. Not everybody agrees with me.
That said, I will compile a summary of my conversations with various people and post it here when I can.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
I remain utterly convinced that the two dies in question are both 1849/6. Not everybody agrees with me.
That said, I will compile a summary of my conversations with various people and post it here when I can.
TD
I feel if PCGS can't come to a definitive conclusion and their bottom line is that the variety remains questionable, they should remove this particular variety from the registry. My hope is that they make a final determination. As I posted above, I too am convinced they are 49/6.
UPDATE: Going forward see this thread for updates:
I just received notice from the variety attribution dept that he did not see the markers required to identify the 1849/6 overdate variety;
(these images should be zoomable)
I asked the Customer Service representative if she would look at the trueviews for me and tell me if she saw anything. She described the curved lines in the loops, but she could not be definate, which is understandable. Frustrating is an understatement.
Do we know if @BrettPCGS is as interested in incorrect variety attribution as his predecessors?
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
Both of @oih82w8's coins above are easily attributed as V-2 (9 / far 6).
Obverse 2:
date position of 4 relative to pendant
under digit lumps visible on top of 849
under digits visible within 849
Reverse B cracks:
right ribbon
UN D H T
TES tops
F left top
splits ME
[die pair table from my 1849 attribution guide]
Correct, this is reverse B and is only used with V-2.
Similarly, reverse F with crack from left ribbon to S1 is only used with V-4,
so often the simplest way to attribute V-2 or V-4 is to look for the crack at either right or left ribbon.
Please tell the Customer Service rep to contact me.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Just got out of the hospital. Give me a day or two to catch up on things.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I have been contacted by Heather as a direct result of this thread. We are discussing the issue.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I have confirmation from Bill Fivaz that the former 1849/8 V-4 FS-301 will now be listed in CPG 6/2 as 1849/6 FS-301a,
and the former 1849/8 V-2 FS-302 will now be listed as 1849/6 FS-302a.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@oih82w8 said:
Should the variety be acknowledged with a certain amount of detail; EDS, LDS, etc... like ATS?
In my opinion they should be, as the differences are quite significant.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
I have confirmation from Bill Fivaz that the former 1849/8 V-4 FS-301 will now be listed in CPG 6/2 as 1849/6 FS-301a,
and the former 1849/8 V-2 FS-302 will now be listed as 1849/6 FS-302a.
Wow, this is great news!
Thank you for all your persistent and effective work which has had this important success!
It was a long standing problem that needed to be fixed. @MrHalfDime would be smiling to see this finally corrected!
I believe we can be assured that PCGS will follow the CPG on this as well.
You are welcome. It only took me about 40 years........
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
Did you guys happen to see that NGC is making some changes on their VarietyPlus website? 1849/8 is NOT listed.
https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/half-dimes/4734/514353/
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
This is great news - it eliminates one of the prime sources of confusion.
So in other words the 1849/8 may not exist?
Is it known when NGC made that change?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
It is just a (more accurate) change of labels for the V-2 and V-4 (also V-6 and V-5).
The old Redbook "9/8" is the V-4 (and V-5).
The registry variety sets will likely still include both V-2 and V-4 obverses, as they are fairly easy to see and distinctive.
Just to clarify, the old Redbook "9/8" is actually the V-4 (and V-5) "9/6"?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Yes.
My suggested labels are:
V-2 (and V-6): "9 / Far 6"
V-4 (and V-5): "9 / Near 6"
ttt
The style of the 1846 date has a very fat 6, which could explain why the 1849 V-2 shows the underdate swinging way out to the right of the 9.
Could somebody please post a similar closeup of an 1848 just to show the style of the digits?
Thanks,
TD
1848 V-5 MS-66 PCGS CoinFacts ex-Simpson
1846 V-1 MS-62 PCGS CoinFacts
Great, thanks!
No updates from our host received personally by me yet...
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Just for the sake of this discussion, here's one that popped up on eBay as an 1849/6 :
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1849-6-1849-Over-6-Seated-Liberty-Half-Dime-90-Silver-PCGS-MS65-Template-Coin/142710152574?hash=item213a301d7e:g:Q6gAAOSwUgham3Sp
Here is it's cert page with a TrueView:
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/34953009
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Almost all True Views show up in the CoinFacts list, including this one.
Checking the cert, I already attributed it as a V-6.
@ms70 that eBay 1849/6 shares the same characteristics (die crack at the head, dot on the denticle at star seven and die chip on the top of the Phrygian cap) as the one I have which I am trying to resubmit to PCGS for variety attribution.
I am going to stop by the CONECA table at Irving on Friday, if they are there, and see what they think.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
Still in limbo. I'll e-mail or call next week... If I'm not buried in snow again.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Have been corresponding with Fivaz, Stanton and Bowers. Will summarize after I have had more coffee.
In the meantime, there is one suggestion on the floor that the TPG's certify the two dies as "1849 Overdate. FS-301 (or 302)" and not state what the underdate is. Your thoughts?
How do they certify the 1824 over various dates half dollar?
Personally I'm not a fan of that idea because then it just continues on as something to question and dispute. I'd prefer a conclusion otherwise it will never be put to rest. I think there's been an abundance of convincing evidence put forth to conclude it's a "6" under there.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
This post by Yosclimber is what I found to be most evidentiary of the underdigit being a 6.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Received this e-mail today:
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Anyone have anything yet?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Nothing on this end.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
I remain utterly convinced that the two dies in question are both 1849/6. Not everybody agrees with me.
That said, I will compile a summary of my conversations with various people and post it here when I can.
TD
I feel if PCGS can't come to a definitive conclusion and their bottom line is that the variety remains questionable, they should remove this particular variety from the registry. My hope is that they make a final determination. As I posted above, I too am convinced they are 49/6.
UPDATE: Going forward see this thread for updates:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/998039/update-on-my-emails-to-others-regarding-1849-half-dime-overdates#latest
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Great thread!
My YouTube Channel
I can add another attributed (V-1 note the 184 touching the underside of the rock pedestal) to the listing;
Our host agreed on the variety 1849/6
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
I did notice that ATS they are using the LDS in their descriptions;
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4239812-005/62/
Here are a couple more unattributed 1849/6;
(images by robec)
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
I just received notice from the variety attribution dept that he did not see the markers required to identify the 1849/6 overdate variety;
(these images should be zoomable)
I asked the Customer Service representative if she would look at the trueviews for me and tell me if she saw anything. She described the curved lines in the loops, but she could not be definate, which is understandable. Frustrating is an understatement.
Do we know if @BrettPCGS is as interested in incorrect variety attribution as his predecessors?
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
Refresh my memory- Was that reverse used in any other die marriage?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Not that I am aware of (it's Reverse B )...Clint? @yosclimber
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
Both of @oih82w8's coins above are easily attributed as V-2 (9 / far 6).
Obverse 2:
Reverse B cracks:
[die pair table from my 1849 attribution guide]
Correct, this is reverse B and is only used with V-2.
Similarly, reverse F with crack from left ribbon to S1 is only used with V-4,
so often the simplest way to attribute V-2 or V-4 is to look for the crack at either right or left ribbon.
Please tell the Customer Service rep to contact me.
Lets see if this still works...
Paging @CustomerService please contact @CaptHenway
@HeatherBoyd is a "go getter" as well.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
I hope they didn't already put them in the mail.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
When I called earlier this evening...the CS representative said that the package has left the mail room.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
Crud. Even if PCGS decides to look at them again you still get crushed in the shipping fees.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
With the predecessors, when shipping coins back for an "oversight revist", the shipping was reimbursed.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
No responses back from our host over the Easter weekend...perhaps some traction will be found today.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
@CaptHenway were you contacted by @CustomerService ? Neither @BrettPCGS or @HeatherBoyd have chimed in on this as of this message.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
Just got out of the hospital. Give me a day or two to catch up on things.
I have been contacted by Heather as a direct result of this thread. We are discussing the issue.
Be well @CaptHenway !
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
Does anyone have anything new on this subject?
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
I have confirmation from Bill Fivaz that the former 1849/8 V-4 FS-301 will now be listed in CPG 6/2 as 1849/6 FS-301a,
and the former 1849/8 V-2 FS-302 will now be listed as 1849/6 FS-302a.
TD
Should the variety be acknowledged with a certain amount of detail; EDS, LDS, etc... like ATS?
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
In my opinion they should be, as the differences are quite significant.
Hopefully our host will acknowledge the Pick-up points, OBV and REV, that Clint @yosclimber has in his identification guide.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
Wow, this is great news!
Thank you for all your persistent and effective work which has had this important success!
It was a long standing problem that needed to be fixed.
@MrHalfDime would be smiling to see this finally corrected!
I believe we can be assured that PCGS will follow the CPG on this as well.
You are welcome. It only took me about 40 years........
I have one in a slab that's been sitting in my desk for a long time just waiting for that to happen.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Same here...two actually, although the PCGS variety attributor said that he did not see the pick-up points.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...