Grading Reformation - Unitary or "singular" grades
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
Grading Reformation - As nailed to the grading room door..... 
There are three descriptions of condition (or ‘grades’) that identify unitary (or singular) points along the continuum of coin or medal condition.
The maximum endpoint is “Perfect” (or MS-70) which is a piece that is exactly as it came from the dies. This definition implies nothing about the extent of visible detail, or any characteristics of the three dies (obverse, reverse, edge). There are no exceptions of any kind using magnification up to 20x.
The minimum endpoint is “Poor” (or P–01) which is a piece that is extensively word and identifiable only by type. Date, inscriptions and mint designators are unreadable under normal conditions of 20x magnification. The edge design may or may not be discernible.
The third and possibly most important unitary point is the demarcation between Uncirculated and Circulated. Thus is called “About Uncirculated” (or AU). It is the point at which abrasion can be discerned on the highest points of design and/or the original surface is disturbed or modified by abrasion (often called “impaired luster”). As with other unitary condition descriptions, 20x magnification is sufficient for determinations.
Comments
Yeah, I'm afraid some novice will come along, read that, and attempt to use it in today's market.
"In today's market", there are degrees of AU. (For clarity, they are AU-50, 53, 55, and 58. And if you really want to be accurate, there are probably high end 53's, nearly 55....and low end 53's, nearly 50.) Not only is "AU" not singular, the various gradations of AU are no more "singular" than any other grade, be it VF, or MS-64.
It's fine to have your own grading system, or grading opinion, or grading bias. But I think you are doing a disservice to the hobby by trying to pass it off as "the truth"!!
When I started out, there was BU, AU, XF, VF, F, and G. Maybe there was P but the coin shops didn't bother. I don't think you'll get anywhere with your three theses though.
When I first started collecting Type Coins & PL/DMPL Morgan Dollars back in the early 1970’s there were only 3 Descriptive grading categories of Mint Sate Coins (UNC/BU, Choice BU & Gem BU) and one Almost Uncirculated (AU) category.
Then Numeric Grading was introduced as an additional descriptor for the 3 above-mentioned grades: MS-60 = UNC/BU, MS-63 = Choice BU & MS-65 = Gem BU. Back then the adjective Brilliant indicated Unspotted & Untoned Superior Eye Appeal & Valuation than “Tarnished” or Toned coins.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Deserves to be posted in Best OF!!
Another great post.
And that is why grading is so subjective and all over the place. A large number of 70's are not and a very large number of low MS coins are not.
So next time you claim something is "THE TRUTH" you better clarify it. What is "THE TRUTH" has been ignored for decades until folks begin to think that "THE TRUTH" is a disservice to the hobby. Until a collector understands "THE ACTUAL TRUTH" (coins formerly graded AU in the past are now graded MS) so he knows the difference between the way things are now and the way they should be in an ideal, and precise system he will not be able to play the "game" as well.
These three points are about as close to bedrock as we can come, but even these can engender arguments and disagreements.
The truth is that historical grading practices, no matter how correct, can get you in a bunch of trouble if you carry them with you as you go shopping around the bourse. It seems more useful to develop an understanding of the market and grading as it is being used and applied today. It also seems useful to understand that grading, pricing. and market whims will continue to evolve.
The debate will continue until standards are developed and AI introduced to grading....That will revolutionize the system and TPG's will have to regrade millions of coins.... Of course, then the debate will continue, concerning which AI program is more critical and consistent.... but at least standards will be established...one can only hope. Cheers, RickO
Agreed however one must wonder about coins graded prior to any new system being established. I predict chaos will ensue and the tpg's will benefit with an enormous new revenue stream. Just MO.
Disagreement about application of the definition of the three set-points would occur, but no modification of the three points would occur. It then becomes and individual coin discussion about see-it or see-it-not -- and that can be mediated because there are fixed reference points for ALL. This would also provide a better legal basis for those who feel they have been sold overgraded coins.
I don't realistically look for adoption any more than Fr Martin Luther was trying to overturn catholic practice. But -- maybe -- maybe in some pizza-filled back room -- future heretics will discuss the concepts.
If I understand the OP, I disagree. Because at each of those so-called points in the continuum, some coins are better than others.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
NO, NO, NO, and NEVER!
Sorry, a 70 is perfect. At one time they were so rare that the major TPGS's did not recognize the grade even for vintage proofs struck up into the 1980's (even though some 70's actually existed). When the quality and extreme numbers of "modern" coins such as SE became eligible for grading, the 70 grade was used. I believe NGC was the last major service to adopt that grade. Although I had no say in the decision, I did hear some of the discussions.
Today, because of the way they are graded, I must agree with your statement. Although, it is not right IMO, all 70's are not perfect 70's.
The AU grade has also been corrupted. That does not make it right either.
I believe the point being made is if we were to test a bunch of expert numismatists one by one, eliminate the value of the coin and ask each of them (with a gun to their head) to decide these three grades from a technical position there would be very little disagreement. For the 70, ANYTHING on the coin would eliminate it from that grade. For the
AU-58, they would be told to ignore strike and roll rub. Either the coin has full Mint luster on its high points, or it does not. Impaired luster from hits is ignored.
I don't like it but I must play the "game" when at the office. Take an attractive, mark-free coin with a 57 amount of wear and I may send it to the next guy as a 62! In the notes, I write "WITH RUB." That way they can affirm I'm the crazy old guy in the room who cannot commercial grade a coin without some comment. My other favorite when grading a coin MS is NOG(Not original and I should not touch it with a pole!).
P-1 is a who cares grade except for very rare coins. if some expert sees a continuum from P-1 to P-1+ that's their problem.
You and me as dueling expert witnesses
I would pay my own airfare to testify just to see the look on your face when the verdict came in.
As an aside, I'm involved, as are many other dealers, with the Numismatic Consumer Alliance.
Its sole purpose is to aid coin buyers who have been defrauded get some of their money back.
Dealers like JA and Eric Streiner have put in numerous hours of free courtroom testimony. I'm rusty on the numbers for the last few years, but the recovery total has averaged about a million annually over the last decade or so. If you or someone you know needs help of with recovery from predatory pricing, whether from misuse of grading or other frauds, call the CAC number. JA started this non-profit and will always make time for it, as will I and many others.
Was it the 1987 Silver Dollar Show?. PCGS founder/master grader/table-partner John Dannreuther and I are heading out to lunch when we see John Highfill and Dean Tavenner being photographed holding a slab up to the camera. Someone's paying someone $3500 for the first dollar-sized something in a PCGS holder grading "70". I guess it was an ASE? "C'mon, JD", I archly ask. "A 70?" In a world-(and Rick)-weary tone, he responds "We're talking 5X. It wasn't all that low end"
The maximum endpoint is “Perfect” (or MS-70) which is a piece that is exactly as it came from the dies.
this is theoretical not actual.
while no two coins come off the dies identical, by this way of thinking both would be graded the same 70. maybe in the perfect world this difference can't be seen/measured from coin 1 to coin 2, but it surely can on coin 1,000. heck, even when the Mint does everything humanly possible to achieve perfection they fall short.