A majority of collectors do not know how to grade coins. What I think is more significant though is that too many collectors don't know how to tell if a coin has been cleaned or altered. There are plenty of dealers or dealer wannabes that I have ran into at shows that do not know how to grade either... or they intentionally do it to try to take advantage of unknowing collectors to make more money.
@Insider2 said:
Besides, a coin's actual condition of preservation often has little to do with its commercial grade!
What???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think he was saying that coins aren’t being graded, based largely on their technical merits.
Then what, exactly, is the basis for the market value (i.e. commercial grade)? I understand that there are factors like color that play an undeserved role IMO, but his statement still strikes me a gross hyperbole even accounting for the "bonuses" that the TPGSs sometimes hand out.
@specialist said:
Fewer dealers then you know can grade. Some make their livings off of white mogans and circ gold. Don't be fooled.
As far as collectors, I'd say fewer then 1% really know how to grade Ex Link, Morlean, Blay, etc They all sit on the bourse floors and learn by trading and grading
I agree with you and @roadrunner . The implications are concerning especially when viewed in the context of an already thinning collector/market base. My perception is that the majority of collectors and dealers do not think for themselves and blindly rely on labels, which doesn't seem healthy to me. There is so much junk out there that some collectors have seemingly forgotten what the standards (purportedly) are. This isn't just with grading, but in detecting problem coins as well. Over the last decade especially, the services have encapsulated large numbers of AT coins to the point that many newer collectors (prevalent on Instagram and other forums) no longer know what natural toning looks like and are baffled when their coins fail CAC or fail to straight grade even though there are many just like it that were straight graded a couple of years ago (even though none of the coins would have stood a chance only a decade ago). It makes you wonder about the future of our hobby and long term market effects.
@Insider2 said:
Besides, a coin's actual condition of preservation often has little to do with its commercial grade!
What???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think he was saying that coins aren’t being graded, based largely on their technical merits.
Then what, exactly, is the basis for the market value (i.e. commercial grade)? I understand that there are factors like color that play an undeserved role IMO, but his statement still strikes me a gross hyperbole even accounting for the "bonuses" that the TPGSs sometimes hand out.
Even though Insider2 rarely posts perhaps he will reply, himself.
In the meantime....As you no doubt know, long term, the trend has been away from technical grading and towards commercial/market/value grading. Still, if I understood Insider2's statement correctly, I agree with you that it sounded exaggerated.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have read most the posts on this thread but not all so I apologize for any repetition:
1) I think grading is clearly a skill. Most people overestimate their ability. It is like golf. Everyone can putt---even a little old lady or an 8 year old kid so people think it is easy. However, their is huge range of skill level putting and when you get to the PGA tour those guys are so good at it and make it look so easy, everyone thinks they can do it. Anyone can grade a coin and can get lucky here and there. The better collectors will do better than most but still not be at the "pro" level.
2) Coin grading falls into that 10,000 hours rule. It is hard for anyone to be expert at grading if they don't have the ability to look at thousands of coins monthly first hand. You can do a lot to make yourself a better grader but to be at the top level I think you need access to reviewing thousands of coins.
3) I don't think anything changes if all coins are raw or all are in TPG slabs. Most people will never be at the "pro" level of grading and therefore we are fortunate to have TPG.
I do a lot of business overseas in countries where TPGs are not a big factor. It’s interesting to see how some of the sharpest dealers see coins perfectly but still have no clue where the coin will grade on the Sheldon scale. It’s even more interesting, at least to me, that collectors of US coins might, if they have a good enough eye, be better off knowing nothing about the TPGs and the Sheldon scale. ( EACers should get that immediately. It will be tougher for Morgan collectors, but still true.)
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
100% of people can grade to their standard, as NGC/CAC/PCGS have no published standards (and going by many thoughts that have been expressed by collectors and dealers over the years those standards change by the minute) to go by 0% can consistently grade to any of those firms standard.
@Peace_dollar88 said:
I think most collectors and dealers alike are pretty good at grading high when they are selling and grading low when they are buying! lol
This was standard business practice by many dealers at one time and this is why third party grading became so popular with collectors.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Insider2 said:
Besides, a coin's actual condition of preservation often has little to do with its commercial grade!
What???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on, you know that's true. Don't you?
If not, I may have not been clear enough. Sorry.
But the market/commercial grade must be based on something and isn't divined into existence deus ex machina. There are obviously extrinsic factors/arbitrary adjustments as well, but the market grade does depend on the technical aspects of the coin to some degree.
@cameonut2011 said:
....the market grade does depend on the technical aspects of the coin to some degree.
It appears that the grade depends only on similarities between coins already graded and and those grades have drifted form what may have been intended or ideal.
Technical/market grades differ from series to series & date/mint to date/mint within the series.
I have no ideal how someone could know more than a few different types well enough to accurately grade with precision.
@Insider2 said:
Besides, a coin's actual condition of preservation often has little to do with its commercial grade!
What???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on, you know that's true. Don't you?
If not, I may have not been clear enough. Sorry.
But the market/commercial grade must be based on something and isn't divined into existence deus ex machina. There are obviously extrinsic factors/arbitrary adjustments as well, but the market grade does depend on the technical aspects of the coin to some degree.
LOL. Yes, the technical aspects are considered: For example, is it round?
I will give you this: Market grading from Poor to XF is fairly well defined (unless you try to comprehend Net grading for these conditions). It is the grades above XF that have major discrepancies between the coin's actual condition and its assigned grade. An obvious example discussed at one time here: The owner of a million dollar coin (and everyone else) that is presently graded MS knows it is AU at best. The coin was auctioned and graded XF long ago. XF to MS over many decades with the coin remaining in virtually the same condition
should answer the WHAT??!!!!!!!!!!!
@Insider2 said:
Besides, a coin's actual condition of preservation often has little to do with its commercial grade!
What???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on, you know that's true. Don't you?
If not, I may have not been clear enough. Sorry.
But the market/commercial grade must be based on something and isn't divined into existence deus ex machina. There are obviously extrinsic factors/arbitrary adjustments as well, but the market grade does depend on the technical aspects of the coin to some degree.
LOL. Yes, the technical aspects are considered: For example, is it round?
I will give you this: Market grading from Poor to XF is fairly well defined (unless you try to comprehend Net grading for these conditions). It is the grades above XF that have major discrepancies between the coin's actual condition and its assigned grade. An obvious example discussed at one time here: The owner of a million dollar coin (and everyone else) that is presently graded MS knows it is AU at best. The coin was auctioned and graded XF long ago. XF to MS over many decades with the coin remaining in virtually the same condition
should answer the WHAT??!!!!!!!!!!!
Agree??!!!!!!!!
I agree that there is a lot of craziness with ultra rarities. I like many of the 1804 dollars, even the damaged one; however, I think we can all agree that all of them are grossly over graded. I also agree that the services are inconsistent and do not always apply their published standards, but that is drastically different from a literal interpretation of your initial post.
@Insider2 said:
Besides, a coin's actual condition of preservation often has little to do with its commercial grade!
What???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on, you know that's true. Don't you?
If not, I may have not been clear enough. Sorry.
But the market/commercial grade must be based on something and isn't divined into existence deus ex machina. There are obviously extrinsic factors/arbitrary adjustments as well, but the market grade does depend on the technical aspects of the coin to some degree.
LOL. Yes, the technical aspects are considered: For example, is it round?
I will give you this: Market grading from Poor to XF is fairly well defined (unless you try to comprehend Net grading for these conditions). It is the grades above XF that have major discrepancies between the coin's actual condition and its assigned grade. An obvious example discussed at one time here: The owner of a million dollar coin (and everyone else) that is presently graded MS knows it is AU at best. The coin was auctioned and graded XF long ago. XF to MS over many decades with the coin remaining in virtually the same condition
should answer the WHAT??!!!!!!!!!!!
Agree??!!!!!!!!
I agree that there is a lot of craziness with ultra rarities. I like many of the 1804 dollars, even the damaged one; however, I think we can all agree that all of them are grossly over graded. I also agree that the services are inconsistent and do not always apply their published standards, but that is drastically different from a literal interpretation of your initial post.
I don't claim to be a great grader - when I was doing IHC's, I needed to know 3 grades - MS65R through MS67R.
In pioneer gold, I wouldn't buy a piece w/o help from "my" dealer.
Whatever you collect, get good at it. If you can grade all series, I'm impressed!
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
@Justacommeman said: I’ve trained myself to try and grade as Pcgs/ CAC does. It’s made my life a lot easier
m
Oh look! Someone who has considered his skill set and knowledge set and ways to optimize his enjoyment.
Radical and rational collector attitude. So, how did he accomplish this?
The OP's question is very specific and has too many answers, but @m's remark serves well.
There are, in fact, no published standards for coin grading.
Any standard that has developed in the past thirty-plus years has morphed (to some degree, and almost always at the lowest and highest ranges within any level) in the last ten years.
BUT
It's been published every year. The problem for many is that it's not a line. It's a zone.
It's the aggregate of everything you've seen over the past two or three years operationalized by consensus within a rotating group of three graders who started sharper than 95+ percent of the business on talent and now apply skills honed by (conservatively) spending 30 seconds per piece at 500 coins per day 200 days a year.
Tune in to the zone(s) and whine a lot less.
How well you can do that is the only question being asked.
Note: There is no shame "misgrading" Pogue Early Gold from pictures.
How many have most people seen in a lifetime that come close?
And how many MS67 Bust Halves with stickers would you (and I) NOT buy (exceptions for any particular variety) if they were technically acceptable "B" and your standard for 67 is B++ to A-. With or without CAC. My personal standard is that a 68 proof type coin is virtually always "A". With or without CAC. There's a lot of PR68's I can pass on from a picture.
If you can't grade eye-appeal you are toast.
If you do most anything silver 1878 and later and can't tell the different between an MS63.85 Morgan and a MS64.65 90% of the time in 10 seconds 3 times a minute, you have not been paying enough attention. Or you may not care at all.
I would suggest that anyone who has failed to do their due diligence on existing standards and how they manifest as dumb-ass integers has in fact failed to adjust to the consensual reality,
Grow the eff up! Accept, at least, that for coin grading TPG style, lack of intellectual rigor and empathic conceptualization of other peoples' thought processes is your impediment.
Most people suck somewhat at somethings. Grading 68's 66+ should not keep you up at night. That's the guy who should trust himself well up to 65+. Maybe.
Compared to what? Please see the OP's original question.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
If we had better options for feedback, you could give an agree and a dislike.
@RogerB and @CaptHenway can likely explain it better than I.
I have 40 years of experience with coins, but a lifetime habit of logorrhea to work with/against.
Note: the first sentence of the above two is pure sarcasm. The second is mendacious in implying I have true regret about this or would change, but only qualifies as sardonic.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Comments
A majority of collectors do not know how to grade coins. What I think is more significant though is that too many collectors don't know how to tell if a coin has been cleaned or altered. There are plenty of dealers or dealer wannabes that I have ran into at shows that do not know how to grade either... or they intentionally do it to try to take advantage of unknowing collectors to make more money.
I think he was saying that coins aren’t being graded, based largely on their technical merits.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Then what, exactly, is the basis for the market value (i.e. commercial grade)? I understand that there are factors like color that play an undeserved role IMO, but his statement still strikes me a gross hyperbole even accounting for the "bonuses" that the TPGSs sometimes hand out.
I agree with you and @roadrunner . The implications are concerning especially when viewed in the context of an already thinning collector/market base. My perception is that the majority of collectors and dealers do not think for themselves and blindly rely on labels, which doesn't seem healthy to me. There is so much junk out there that some collectors have seemingly forgotten what the standards (purportedly) are. This isn't just with grading, but in detecting problem coins as well. Over the last decade especially, the services have encapsulated large numbers of AT coins to the point that many newer collectors (prevalent on Instagram and other forums) no longer know what natural toning looks like and are baffled when their coins fail CAC or fail to straight grade even though there are many just like it that were straight graded a couple of years ago (even though none of the coins would have stood a chance only a decade ago). It makes you wonder about the future of our hobby and long term market effects.
Even though Insider2 rarely posts
perhaps he will reply, himself.
In the meantime....As you no doubt know, long term, the trend has been away from technical grading and towards commercial/market/value grading. Still, if I understood Insider2's statement correctly, I agree with you that it sounded exaggerated.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have read most the posts on this thread but not all so I apologize for any repetition:
1) I think grading is clearly a skill. Most people overestimate their ability. It is like golf. Everyone can putt---even a little old lady or an 8 year old kid so people think it is easy. However, their is huge range of skill level putting and when you get to the PGA tour those guys are so good at it and make it look so easy, everyone thinks they can do it. Anyone can grade a coin and can get lucky here and there. The better collectors will do better than most but still not be at the "pro" level.
2) Coin grading falls into that 10,000 hours rule. It is hard for anyone to be expert at grading if they don't have the ability to look at thousands of coins monthly first hand. You can do a lot to make yourself a better grader but to be at the top level I think you need access to reviewing thousands of coins.
3) I don't think anything changes if all coins are raw or all are in TPG slabs. Most people will never be at the "pro" level of grading and therefore we are fortunate to have TPG.
Come on, you know that's true. Don't you?
If not, I may have not been clear enough. Sorry.
I was going to say the Dealers tend to overgrade (not all of them).......and I tend to undergrade.
I STILL don't like VF Buffs without a full to the tip horn.
Pete
I do a lot of business overseas in countries where TPGs are not a big factor. It’s interesting to see how some of the sharpest dealers see coins perfectly but still have no clue where the coin will grade on the Sheldon scale. It’s even more interesting, at least to me, that collectors of US coins might, if they have a good enough eye, be better off knowing nothing about the TPGs and the Sheldon scale. ( EACers should get that immediately. It will be tougher for Morgan collectors, but still true.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
100% of people can grade to their standard, as NGC/CAC/PCGS have no published standards (and going by many thoughts that have been expressed by collectors and dealers over the years those standards change by the minute) to go by 0% can consistently grade to any of those firms standard.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I think most collectors and dealers alike are pretty good at grading high when they are selling and grading low when they are buying! lol
This was standard business practice by many dealers at one time and this is why third party grading became so popular with collectors.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
But the market/commercial grade must be based on something and isn't divined into existence deus ex machina. There are obviously extrinsic factors/arbitrary adjustments as well, but the market grade does depend on the technical aspects of the coin to some degree.
It appears that the grade depends only on similarities between coins already graded and and those grades have drifted form what may have been intended or ideal.
Technical/market grades differ from series to series & date/mint to date/mint within the series.
I have no ideal how someone could know more than a few different types well enough to accurately grade with precision.
My Saint Set
LOL. Yes, the technical aspects are considered: For example, is it round?
I will give you this: Market grading from Poor to XF is fairly well defined (unless you try to comprehend Net grading for these conditions). It is the grades above XF that have major discrepancies between the coin's actual condition and its assigned grade. An obvious example discussed at one time here: The owner of a million dollar coin (and everyone else) that is presently graded MS knows it is AU at best. The coin was auctioned and graded XF long ago. XF to MS over many decades with the coin remaining in virtually the same condition
should answer the WHAT??!!!!!!!!!!!
Agree??!!!!!!!!
I agree that there is a lot of craziness with ultra rarities. I like many of the 1804 dollars, even the damaged one; however, I think we can all agree that all of them are grossly over graded. I also agree that the services are inconsistent and do not always apply their published standards, but that is drastically different from a literal interpretation of your initial post.
Well that's a little progress.
I don't claim to be a great grader - when I was doing IHC's, I needed to know 3 grades - MS65R through MS67R.
In pioneer gold, I wouldn't buy a piece w/o help from "my" dealer.
Whatever you collect, get good at it. If you can grade all series, I'm impressed!
There are some pretty good answers here.
I'd say "everyone" can grade but only a few can price coins as accurately as the services.
Oh look! Someone who has considered his skill set and knowledge set and ways to optimize his enjoyment.
Radical and rational collector attitude. So, how did he accomplish this?
The OP's question is very specific and has too many answers, but @m's remark serves well.
There are, in fact, no published standards for coin grading.
Any standard that has developed in the past thirty-plus years has morphed (to some degree, and almost always at the lowest and highest ranges within any level) in the last ten years.
BUT
It's been published every year. The problem for many is that it's not a line. It's a zone.
It's the aggregate of everything you've seen over the past two or three years operationalized by consensus within a rotating group of three graders who started sharper than 95+ percent of the business on talent and now apply skills honed by (conservatively) spending 30 seconds per piece at 500 coins per day 200 days a year.
Tune in to the zone(s) and whine a lot less.
How well you can do that is the only question being asked.
Note: There is no shame "misgrading" Pogue Early Gold from pictures.
How many have most people seen in a lifetime that come close?
And how many MS67 Bust Halves with stickers would you (and I) NOT buy (exceptions for any particular variety) if they were technically acceptable "B" and your standard for 67 is B++ to A-. With or without CAC. My personal standard is that a 68 proof type coin is virtually always "A". With or without CAC. There's a lot of PR68's I can pass on from a picture.
If you can't grade eye-appeal you are toast.
If you do most anything silver 1878 and later and can't tell the different between an MS63.85 Morgan and a MS64.65 90% of the time in 10 seconds 3 times a minute, you have not been paying enough attention. Or you may not care at all.
I would suggest that anyone who has failed to do their due diligence on existing standards and how they manifest as dumb-ass integers has in fact failed to adjust to the consensual reality,
Grow the eff up! Accept, at least, that for coin grading TPG style, lack of intellectual rigor and empathic conceptualization of other peoples' thought processes is your impediment.
Most people suck somewhat at some things. Grading 68's 66+ should not keep you up at night. That's the guy who should trust himself well up to 65+. Maybe.
Compared to what? Please see the OP's original question.
@ColonelJessup: I agree with you wholeheartedly.
I just don't know what you said.
Pete
If we had better options for feedback, you could give an agree and a dislike.
@RogerB and @CaptHenway can likely explain it better than I.
I have 40 years of experience with coins, but a lifetime habit of logorrhea to work with/against.
Note: the first sentence of the above two is pure sarcasm. The second is mendacious in implying I have true regret about this or would change, but only qualifies as sardonic.
I did agree with you. Yep.
...................and I'm not being sardonic (I like that word).
Pete
I agree, it just depends who is buying and who is selling and it's not a joke!
I can't grade as well as I can rate graders.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5