“Pedigree” and “Provenance.” Language and meaning in collecting coins.
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
Possibly the most misused non-technical word in numismatics is “pedigree.” Here is the English language meaning of “pedigree” along with the correct word for numismatic usage. This is presented in hopes that collectors, catalogers and writers will be careful about using the correct meaning of words. 
Pedigree – A record of genetic descent of a living thing; an ancestral line of progeny from mating of male and female of each generation to the present.
The only “pedigree” applicable to a coin are its place and date of minting.
Alternative word: lineage.
Provenance – A record of ownership of an object, work of art, or antique; often used to help establish authenticity or historical context. Statement of ownership from origin to the present.
Anything may have record of ownership including living things.
(Not to be confused with “provenience” – meaning the in situ discovery location of an archeological item.)
Comments
If you continue down the listed definitions...
"- The background or history of a person or thing, especially as conferring distinction or quality."
I wouldn't say using Pedigree is WRONG....It's just not the BEST choice.
Thank you @RogerB
You continue making lots of sense.
Unlike that guy who retired from the penny factory.
PS I made this joke up and started using it in different variations years before I became a collector. I used it not long ago here on the boards and have taught it to my children.
In all seriousness, thank you Roger for your posts. I always learn something.
Edit to add:I am only telling all of you about the joke so that it can have it's proper.....provenance.
the correct term is Provenance and it is hard to understand why so many are confused and why the major auction firms and TPG's continue to use pedigree.
don't they realize the sheep will follow??
Coins do not have a "pedigree;" that's reserved for your horse, dog, or bonsai.
Can you use "pedigree" if the coin is a real dog?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I will continue to misspeak as long as people continue to properly understand me.
"Provenance" is so very much a snooty Britishism trolling French cultural elitism.
It's correct language morphed into pretentious jargon,
"Pedigree" is semiotic. The plebs agree. We are all wrong
They both work very well, but if you want to exclude 93% of the population, stick with "provenance". It's admirable.
My daughter used to teach English to French students at a high school in the Loire Valley. Every time she hears me speak French she says she wants to put air quotes around my words,
OTOH I heartily applaud in situ
funny that you should think that way, snooty, I mean. I always felt it was sort of snooty when blue-bloods would speak of their pedigree.
maybe we should just settle on "Ex:" with the name following as what's correct and drop both words.
PerryHall -- That might be considered "barking up the wrong tree" unless there are multiple squirrels.
Correct use of language is basic to communication. It conveys nothing about individuals except they can say what they mean. Failure to use words in their correct meaning, indicates either ignorance (which can be changed), that the user does not care, or is attempting to be deceptive.
In a small hobby, like coin collecting, new members pick up technical terms and jargon from others. If catalogs and speakers say "pedigree" when they mean "provenance" the whole enterprise becomes confused.
PS: Lots of older collectors habitually say "rim" when they mean "edge."
mrhalfdime taught me that pedigree is for and about dogs, whereas provenance was the better term to refer to coins that belonged to certain people. I'm sticking with that.
The reason is that cataloguers don't like repeating words, as it makes their text less lively. So they use these two words interchangeably. Thanks for the lesson, Roger!
A dug up coin going through multiple owners has provenience then provenance. Cool!
I don't care about dotting every "I" and crossing every "T" if the alternative is that my listeners tune me out due to my supercilious pedantry and miss the core of my meaning.
I recently sold a coin and used pedigree in the description. It felt odd when I typed it and it didn't look right but I left it. I'd have changed it if this thread was a few weeks earlier. 😳
Years ago a co-worker used a nonsense word to describe something and I told him that's not even a real word.
He asked me if I knew what he meant.
I said yes.
He said "then it's a word".
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
@RogerB if you want changes at PCGS, you really should at mention Heather or Brett.
PCGS uses both but has a preference for Pedigree
Here are the entries in the PCGS Lingo page.
Unfortunately for some, ignorance is bliss. If you will not learn, then you are ignorant. Provinance may sound hoity-toity, but it is correct.
Zoins,
Thanks for the suggestion. PCGS folks already monitor most posts and threads. If they want to change they can, same for improving cleanliness in handling coins, and so forth. same applies to auction companies and people who write/copy descriptions.
You mean provenance
I"m going to use "provenance" from now on. Precision in language is extraordinarily important. There is a widely-accepted theory that a person's critical thinking skills are directly tied to the breadth and precision of their vocabulary.
Well -- I'm going to get a stronger mouthwash to improve my breadth and critical thinking skills !
This discussion reminds me of when people correct me when I say "penny" rather than the technically correct term "cent".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
@RogerB.... Thank you for the post.... I have often seen these terms misused. I do not comment, because I do not care about either one....Neither ancestry nor ownership history are relevant to my collecting interests....Cheers, RickO
I always considered pedigree to be a point in time description while provenance is more synonymous with lineage or chain of custody.
8 Reales Madness Collection
I think we should always use the correct term in the correct context. However, there's probably not a penny's worth of difference in this case.
Nice!... @mrearlygold taught me how to properly block bidders on eBay for asking too many honest questions about BIN items...but the coolest part of the trick is instantly sending them a message letting them know that they have been blocked accordingly
This one is arguable. The legislation calls them "cents" but the Mint has used "penny" in internal documentation. Are some cents actually illegal issues because the Mint manufactured them as "pennies" and not as "cents?"
Webster's Dictionary, copywrite 1983 (just to show this isn't some new-fangled definition):
Pedigree
"2b: the origin and the history of something".
Just because ONE GUY has a limited, and biased, idea of what a word means doesn't mean we all have to fall in line!
The English language has plenty of variety to it. Different words can be used for the same thing. I'm guessing the first use of "Pedigree" for an inanimate object was probably playful. Maybe just to avoid repeating me word, over and over again. Maybe the first users really didn't understand the "mis-use".
But the meaning is in the dictionary now! English evolves, changes, morphs, and becomes more descriptive and useful as time goes on.
Guess what: "Pedigree" gets the meaning across just fine. The intention is easy to divine, and there is no confusion to an average adult reading it.
This whole thread bugs me.
During redemption of old large cents and half cents, the Mint Bureau also called them "coppers" to help the public separate them from "white cents" or "nickel cents."
However, the use of cent or penny is a common language situation and not analogous to the original post.
Unfortunately, TommyType, "pedigree" does not convey an accurate meaning...unless, as another member suggested, the coin is a "dog." Of course, some might wish to hop into their banana, and fly to lightbulb for a hard chicken mineral at the hubcap, to cogitate or conflate, Then backward arriving sideways greeted by concubine and the dear immense cherubs, and watch the Dumont -- but that's ok.
Enjoy marsupials!
So, you're just going to ignore the definition I pulled directly from a physical dictionary, and claim YOU alone have the proper definition of "Pedigree"?
I assume your middle name is "Webster".
So...let's review.
So, what's the beef? Where is the harm? What loss of meaning are we protecting ourselves against?
Cats too!
I'm also going to use the term "pedigree" if for no other reason than to irritate Roger.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
RE: "I'm also going to use the term 'pedigree' if for no other reason than to irritate Roger."
Actually, it won't irritate me at all; it's the above poster who wants to be misunderstood. Have at it.
Misuse of words and their meanings, either within a specific setting or in general, is entirely up to the individual. The risk is that others might not understand what the user says or possibly act on the poor communication thereby creating problems when none need exist.
For businesses, it is important they select words with the correct meanings to allow communication with all those interacting with the company. That includes using the most prevalent meanings of words and then having at least a basic knowledge of syntax, unlike the cobbled together examples a few have posted.
So there it is: Use whatever words you wish, but don't expect to be understood or have content appreciated if words are used incorrectly. For provenance and pedigree, just remember that the former is a chain of ownership/control, and the latter is a generational breeding description.
...Unless you force yourself to actually read a dictionary, in which case you'll learn otherwise.
There are OPINIONS, and there are FACTS. We should all learn to tell the difference.
Added:....and I'm being a pain in the, you know what. I just have a real personal issue with black and white thinking. There is ALWAYS a shade of gray. Always. So, I should apologize for not just letting it go. It's not exactly a pressing issue in the world, anyway. I will agree that Provenance is the more proper word. If you are being scholarly, it's the right choice. I just don't see a problem with Pedigree. It's use is proper, accepted, and completely understandable.
I'm going to stop butting in now.
Roger. Did you see the winky emoji? I was kidding you!!! I thought you had a sense of humor but I may be wrong. I apologize if I hurt your feelings.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Seems like this discussion is moot with the definitions from the Oxford and Webster dictionaries.
The late Harrington Manville is my source for coin terminology- his 2014 book “Dictionary of English Numismatic Terms” has entries for both words:
Pedigree- the previous history of an individual coin, token, or medal- especially valuable (both historically and in price) when one can be traced to an important individual or collection
Provenance- the source of a coin, that is, its discovery origin or previous ownership, as expressed in its pedigree.
Based on this, pedigree may actually be the better term when listing a detailed history.
The problem with dictionaries is that if people pollute the meaning of a word long enough, it pretty much has to show up in some of them as an alternative definition.
Merriam-Webster:
pedigree noun
ped·i·gree | \ ˈpe-də-ˌgrē \
1 : a register recording a line of ancestors "The pedigree traces the family back to the 18th century".
2a : an ancestral line : lineage "That horse has an impressive pedigree".
b : the origin and the history of something "Democracy's pedigree stretches back to ancient Greece". broadly : background, history
3a : a distinguished ancestry "actions spoke louder than pedigrees in the trenches"— Dixon Wecter
b : the recorded purity of breed of an individual or strain "vouch for a horse's pedigree"
I get it though. In coin marketing, you want to conflate "purity of breed" as being the same as a list of people who happened to own it for a while.
Funny how they seem to always use "provenance" with artwork.
Just saw this thread (08/28/2020). I wrote up an ANA blog back in 2017 that could shed some light on this topic.
https://money.org/collector/drdarryl/blog/provenance-to-pedigree
Here is a rather interesting JFK medal in my collection. I redacted this letter of provenance to protect the widow's identity (she is still alive). The original recipient worked at the Department of State (his obituary states this fact and places him in the Dublin Ireland embassy during President Kennedy's visit). Full Chain of Ownership: President John F. Kennedy -to- Department of State Employee -to- Wife of Department of State Employee -to- Yours truly.
I have a Presidents Eisenhower (medal), Kennedy (medal), Johnson (coin) , and Nixon (coin) with provenance (full chain of ownership) to myself. I will post the rest of these items in a follow-on entry.
Wow, for a second I thought @RogerB was back, but the banned icon remains on this resuscitated thread. Even though his attitude could move the snark knobs up to 11, I actually liked his contributions and miss his posts. Far better than that so-called "insider2" dude (I refuse to tag him), who I really don't miss at all.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets