Options
A CAC technical question
jkrk
Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭✭✭
Suppose If I buy a MS65 St Gaudens $20 gold coin from dealer X (slabbed no Cac sticker).
Let's say the dealer sent the coin to CAC previous to my buying it and obviously it did't pass.
If I send the coin to CAC.. will they..
1)look up the cert # and not pass the coin automatically or
2)Treat the coin as new giving it a second look?
thnx.
0
Comments
Coins which failed to sticker the first time have the second time in the same slab with the same certification label number.
Good question.
None of us knows CAC's methods. But it is reasonable to assume that CAC will know of the prior failure if the cert# is unchanged.
It is also reasonable to assume CAC will give the coin a fresh look and may change its position.
Sometimes coins are returned to CAC, after failing to sticker, for a "reconsideration". Reversals have happened.
Lance.
I asked CAC/JA about this a few years ago, as I later found out that I had sent a coin that had previously been sent in.
I was told that, yes, they do look it up and see if it was sent before but they also look at the coin again and re-evaluate it. No one's perfect.
So, a coin could go in, not CAC, go back in, and CAC.
I had sent over 80-100 coins in that submission (mine and a few friends' coins) and when I talked with JA he was laughing and said he was amazed that only one had been sent in prior (I was shocked, but he was very friendly and cool to chat with about it and a few other coins).
So, in short, #2 from your list was the answer I was given.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I've had a couple coins resticker on a second submission after failing the first time around so option #2.
CAC-fail...Regrade...CAC-fail...Regrade...CAC-pass....Recon-4-Plus-fail......Recon-4-Plus-pass....Then re-bean and done
My Saint Set
Yes, reversals happen, but without knowing anything else about the coin, your odds on a gem $20 Saint are not good.
Send it in and let us know the results.... It will provide another data point to add to the conversation. Cheers, RickO
This is addressed on their website in the FAQ section.
https://www.caccoin.com/faqs/
The serial numbers of all PCGS and NGC coins that are submitted to CAC are recorded at the time they are entered into the CAC system.
All PCGS or NGC coins that are submitted to CAC are reviewed for CAC verification whether they have previously been submitted to CAC or not. Occasionally a coin that has previously been rejected for CAC verification is reconsidered by CAC and stickered.
Collector, occasional seller
another angle might be --- When a coin arrives at CAC do they enter the cert number first or check the coin first??
Intuitively it seems like your best chance to get a coin stickered that previously failed would be to get it regraded so it has a different certification number. If a coin has a large pop “tricking” JA might work but if it’s a low pop coin good luck with his photographic memory.
When do the sticker inflation threads begin (TDN mentioned a few months ago in a thread in passing)?
Is the coin really that bad?
Should have purchased one already CAC'ed.
If I had to guess, I'd guess that they enter first and check at the same time. Does it even matter since John said that they're always willing to give it a second look.
Who has submitted more coins to CAC? Dealers or collectors?
logically, if they entered a number and it returned as "failed" the odds are that it will fail again due at least in part to inherent bias.
I could be wrong, but I suspect that whoever receives and enters the coins doesn't end up grading them so as far as the graders; unless they remember the coin/coins they don't know that they're resubmits. If that's not how it is then that's how it ought to be.
Also JA said that they pull stickers off of coins they previously approved, I'm not sure how many but they do. They use real criteria and clearly if a coin gets flagged by a numismatist as not deserving of the cac sticker that may result in an ex-cac coin.
$20 Saints in MS65 aren't the best example for this situation considering only 3-5% of them ever get a sticker. Those are numbers passed along to me by expert, PNG/PCGS gold dealers who have been dealing for decades. My own personal experiences with large submissions of fresh/random PCGS/NGC MS65 $20's back when CAC first opened up was 6%. Probably not much different today. Your odds may vary.
If you want a stickered MS65 Saint today, those cost an additional 20-30% premium to unstickered. It might just as cost effective buying an unstickered MS66 for similar money. If gold ever takes off again, the CAC premiums on generic gem MS65/66 gold will shrink considerably as they did from 2010-2011. In that case the market will need tons of product, and rather quickly. The 5% of stickered Saints can't fill that demand. So the other 95% will be uplifted in stature with less people caring about a sticker on PCGS/NGC 65 Saints.
Thanks all.
The likelihood of receiving a sticker on a ST Gauden 65 or better (bought from a dealer) is a very low probability event.
Here is My belief. Each coin submitted is checked in by serial # and noted whether the coin has been submitted before. A pre-grader will look at the failed coin and determine whether the coin should be passed on to the head graders for a second look.
I only purchase non-Cac coins since I only want gold proxies.
I sell Any coins that CAC to collectors.
But this assumes that the graders (as opposed to administrative staff) access that data before grading. I have no idea whether that is the case or not.
I would hope in the interest of transparency that the graders would have no idea if any of the coins are retreads.
A coin is rejected by CAC and then is relegated to EBay to be sold to another with no data on being rejected by CAC. The new owner submits to CAC on to have it rejected. Since CAC does not post it's rejects this process could go on for years. But then; money talks and.........
There is no fee for collectors who submit coins to CAC that are rejected. Dealers pay $14.50/coin regardless of outcome.
The same same can be said for coins that are sent for crossover to PCGS or NGC, but don't cross. Of course the cost to try the coin at CAC is typically quite a bit less than that for a crossover attempt, elsewhere.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I believe that CAC will give the coin a second look.
A related example is that I have a coin that was given a second look and went from green to gold sticker.
Yes, but the postage and insurance costs real money.
Smitten with DBLCs.
At one point CAC was going to charge collectors if a repeat did not grade, but never did that. As long as different collectors submit it, one could get the same coin looked at a jillion times.
Yes, but the upside for a $20 St Gaudens getting a sticker at PCGS 65 is quite significant for a relatively small cost. If you have a keen eye it would seem to be worth the risk.
When buying a coin raw or graded I guess one has to be careful.