Prooflike $20 Gold Liberty Carson City Double Eagles - (NGC & HA Population Statistics)
Stuart
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As an Introduction, the following quote from noted Gold Coin Expert Douglas Winter about collecting Carson City Double Eagles is worthy of consideration:
"The greatest challenge for the collector of these coins is not finding specific dates but, rather, locating clean problem-free coins. As mentioned above, the typical Carson City double eagle, whether it grades Very Fine-30 or Mint State-61, tends to have negative eye appeal due to excessive marks, scuffing or mint-made spotting. Coins which have truly good eye appeal are quite rare and deserve to sell for a strong premium over average quality specimens. The collector is always urged to “stretch” for exceptional pieces with high quality eye appeal."
Prooflike $20 Gold Liberty Double Eagles - Heritage Auction (HA) Population Statistics:
As of May 8, 2019, of the 68,878 $20 Liberties auctioned by Heritage (HA), only 812 (1.2%) are designated as Prooflike (PL) by the TPGS (NGC & ANACS). The predominant amount 367 (45%) of those 812 were minted solely in 1904.
(Note: PCGS does not attribute the PL or DMPL designation for $20 Liberties.)
Of the 68,878 $20 Liberties Auctioned by HA, 7390 (10.7%) were minted in Carson City (CC). However, only 506 (6.9%) of those Carson City Double Eagles were mentioned to exhibit Prooflike surfaces in the auction description. A total of only Seventeen (17) (0.23%) of the CC Double Eagles were Grade Designated as PL by either NGC (15) or ANACS (2), and only One (1) 1890-CC. I consider those populations to be at least really scarce, if not rare...
(Footnote: Prooflike $20 Libs (esp PL CC $20 Libs) are for whatever reason Much Scarcer (by 1 or 2 orders of magnitude) than their Carson City Morgan Dollar counterparts.)
This 1890-CC $20 Gold Liberty Double Eagle exhibits Reflective Prooflike surfaces on both obverse and reverse.
1890-CC $20 Gold Liberty Double Eagle
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Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Comments
I do not care what they look like, CC gold is cool... Cheers, RickO
How long have TPGs been designating PL on large gold?
Are the standards the same as for Morgan dollars?
NGC started designating other denominations besides Morgan dollars as PL and DPL in March of 2003. NGC has indicated that the standard they use is consistent across all denominations and metals.
Nice!!😋
That's good to know. But --- how can they call some shiny Peace dollars "PL" that are not even close to Morgan dollars with the same attribution.
With reference to @RogerB’s below quoted post I consider the following Descriptive Luster Reflectivity Categories Nomenclature Progressively Transitioning with increasing Reflectivity from Frosty to Ultra-DMPL for Silver Dollars and other coins.
Frosty —> Satiny —> Glossy —> Semi-Prooflike (SPL) —> Prooflike (PL) —> Deep Mirror Prooflike (DMPL) —> Ultra Deep Mirror Prooflike (UDM)
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
...and the objective definitions for PL variations are....?
@RogerB The following PCGS Objective Definition excerpts taken from PCGS’ web site are in reply to your following quoted posted question...
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Unfortunately, those are opinions, not objective statements. What do "clear" "undistorted" "misty" mean? Objectively they mean nothing.
In a prior message thread I described a very simple approach and apparatus for objective, quantifiable measurements. These would be the basis for reliable terminology that could be used with all coins. Until the TPGs use that, or a similar method, PL will be mostly opinion and guess work.
Prooflike $20 Gold Liberty Carson City (CC) Double Eagles - NGC Population Statistics
After recently completing a Date-By-Date Analysis of NGC Population Statistics for Prooflike Carson City $20 Gold Liberty Double Eagles, the following are several summary conclusions:
Summary Conclusions:
1) All Type 2 CC $20 Liberty NGC Graded pops are <2% of Original Mintage, and PL% is <0.34% of NGC Graded CC Population (most are zero).
2) All Type 3 CC $20 Liberty NGC Graded pops are between 2-5% of Original Mintage, and PL% is between 0.04% and 1.16% of NGC Graded CC Population.
3) Out of a Total of Only 41 coins that NGC attributed as PL, Only 3 years (1876-CC, 1892-CC & 1893-CC) totaling 26 coins, represent 63% of the total Carson City NGC Graded PL Designated Population.
(Note: Since PCGS does not apply the Prooflike designation to this series, the NGC Report is as comprehensive a population study as I can do with publicly available information.)
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
I have never come across a $20.00 Gold Liberty designated as PL that is truly Prooflike in comparison to a Morgan's PL mirrors. That is why you do not see PCGS designating $20.00 Gold Liberty's as PL since they do not meet the standards of PL with PCGS.
@HighRelief Perhaps the following may help physically explain how the Human Eye visually perceives different Reflectivity Coefficients from Gold and Silver, in combination with the Depth of Mirrors resulting from polished Prooflike and Deep Mirror Prooflike surfaces.
I consider the following Descriptive Luster Reflectivity Categories Nomenclature Progressively Transitioning with increasing Reflectivity from Frosty to Ultra-DMPL for Silver Dollars and other coins.
Frosty —> Satiny —> Glossy —> Semi-Prooflike (SPL) —> Prooflike (PL) —> Deep Mirror Prooflike (DMPL) —> Ultra Deep Mirror Prooflike (UDM)
Note that Silver has a Stronger Reflectance % between the 300-600nm Visible Light Wavelengths portion of the Spectrum:
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
There seems to be a little confusion about what measurement is being attempted for PL coins. Reflectance is not the attribute being measured. We are attempting to measure and quantify light scatter based on the roughness of a coin surface.
A "perfect" flat surface, such as a front surface lab-grade mirror, would have almost no scatter or absorption. This would reflect a coherent light beam nearly identical to the original incident bean.
No coin surface is entirely flat or a perfect reflector. The PL coin measurement system therefore needs to assess light scatter which is a function of surface roughness and curvature/distortion. Technical studies show that the correlation is almost linear for angular distribution :: roughness, and approximate for curvature/distortion.