How can the coin hobby get this kind of show turnout?
RogerB
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Member "sparky64" posted the following on May 5, 2019; 7:19PM:
"Last month I went to a rock, mineral, fossil show with my brothers family.
I was blown away at how packed the place was. Expected complete boredom but it was absolutely an awesome show and good time.
The dealers were very generous with their knowledge and kids loved it."
Now ---Clearly, those involved are doing many things right. What can coin show organizers, sellers and collectors learn from sparky64's rock, mineral and fossil show experience?
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I don't know anything about rock,mineral,fossil shows. How frequent are they? Was this like a convention?
Making it a family affair.
Offer an enticement for collectors with families. Heck, doesn’t even need to be collectors. Enticement for families in general.
The key is positive interaction between families and dealers. Should use another term instead of “dealers.”
Sounds like it's time to move that mineral collection.
How about "croupier...." ?
Free beer gets attention.
you really need context. Are we comparing to an ANA summer show? A regional show? It's easy to get turnout at a major event like an ANA summer show. Is this the rock equivalent?
Free give aways always draw a crowd, like "first 500 people get a limited edition granite pebble" Coinvention organizers should look at incentivizing ticket buyers or newbies with a neat give away promo, great for families and kids.
all around collector of many fine things
Coins are small and portable. The best of the best coins are dripping with luster, eye appeal, pretty colors, etc. They definitely have a "Bling" like quality to them.
Someone in the hobby should come up with a counterpart to the "A Diamond Is Forever" phrase that has served the diamond industry so well for so long.
Most diamonds are essentially "widgets". They look nice, but there are endless supplies of same. They are very, very common.
The same thing applies to most coins.
However, diamonds are viewed by people of all ages around the world (both male and female) as something special and desirable. There is something in our psyche that stirs one's sole to own diamonds. If only that "something" would apply equally to coins.
So there you have it. The answer to what ails the hobby is the lack of a coin counterpart to "A Diamond Is Forever".
What would your coin counterpart be?
Maybe the rock, mineral and fossil shows are more honest with less vesties trying to sell product over what it is worth. I have seen good rock and mineral dealers who are a lot more educational and interesting. If the coin dealers employed that type of educational and altruistic help, they would probably get more serious customers and kids in their shows.
I dunno, but those rockhounds are intense!
I showed my artwork (Artwalk San Diego) at an art show not last but the previous weekend where 100,000 people showed up. It was packed and my sales where good. The show was free for the public to attend.
Rocks and minerals can be collected without TPGs or stickers.
The Sacramento show had a big crowd.
Where’s my 👓
Keep in mind this is a mineral AND fossil show. It attracts a wider variety of collectors. The gemologists, geologists, and jewelers would be interested in minerals/gemstones. Paleontologists are interested in the fossils. Seriously, who doesn't like dinosaurs?
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Our Round Rock, TX show weekend before last set an all-time attendance record of 311, despite it being a beautiful day outside (we usually do better when it rains or is cold), and have been seeing an uptick over the last few shows. It's a one-day show from 9AM - 4PM with 40 tables, and the venue isn't big enough for more. The show looked and felt busy until around 2PM, when the customers and dealers began clearing out. Not sure what we did differently, but we do have good door prizes (usually slabbed coins purchased by me from the dealers inside) and the coin club was in the lobby with giveaways and games for the kids. We do have a social media presence which I'm sure helped, but really don't advertise anywhere but the coin publications and several websites.
Actually, I know you're kidding but it's no more true for rocks than coins. You can buy them raw but a lot of the better stuff is sold with certs.
All the good rocks have been found😉
How about something like:
"With one coin, two are joined"
Easy, when there is no more collector who would disrespect anyone's collection as "modern junk". I spent less than $20 for the collection below. And kiddies had lot of fun! No one in the gem show would called them pebbles would they?
This is all personal experience raising two sets of kids in my lifetime, but... even with Dad seriously involved in coin collecting and being a smaller dealer - 1.5 out of 7 kids I'll have raised by the time I'm gone have been into coins. One is a grown-up now and still dabbles, the other is still tiny and the jury is still out on him. To the rest, coins was just something Dad did.
Now, 6 out of the 7 all love rocks/minerals, etc. The brainier of the kids would all come home from school telling me what types of rocks they learned about, tries to point out different types of rocks around the yard, etc. Other than teaching the tiny ones how to count coins in a math lesson, I don't think any of the kids ever learned about coin collecting in school. Only 1 was a Boy Scout, but even that badge didn't get the juices flowing.
When we go on family vacations, I remember plenty of nature places that offer the kids a bag of dirt/whatever to "Pan" for in a sluice type thing, nearly every tourist trap has bins of shiny polished rocks fairly cheap - ie a small bag for $5 or something like that - or fancy geodes kind of cheap. My kids even get toys at Wal-Mart now and then that they dig in fake sand for gemstones or fancy rocks type of things.
My point is, at least for my family, they seem to learn more about them and get more of an exposure to rocks and minerals than coins.
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@SanctionII . That's a tough one, "A coin is not forever". Like Oak Island this hobby has always been shrouded in mystery, at least to Nomads like myself.
Paragraph change:)
Maybe the OP could enlighten us as to what percentage of the population indulges in our hobby. I would guess less than 1%.
NOTHING! IMO, the only thing the ANA could do to have bigger shows and interest folks about coins is to open it up to all collectibles.
I love coins but since the advent of slabs, it is no longer fun and the chance of "cherrypicking" is getting impossible. At a postcard, stamp, gem, antique show, everything is "RAW." You get to handle everything. Knowledge provides more "successful" scores - CHEAP! The stuff at other shows (errors, tokens, world, and ancient coins aside) is much more interesting too. U.S. coins are DULL.
When I was an active coin collector, I was first in the show and last to leave going through as many red boxes as I could. I hardly look much now except to find "teaching aids." Give me a postcard show and they need to throw me out with many hundreds of Newps. There are plenty of real "gems" being "given away!" Same goes for mineral specimens or any other collectible.
I'll admit, I am possibly jaded toward coin shows now because I consider every coin I get to examine/research/photograph a part of my "personal" collection while it is in our office.
The FUN show is well attended. High visibility auctions, an inviting location for collectors, dealers, and their families...voila.
So can coins. Very few coins actually require authentication and independent grading. (Gold is a clear exception, with a few others.)
Good stuff --- something to learn from, if anyone is listening!
Only if you wish to be scalped! 95% of the collectors who bought raw coins and ask my opinion at shows Got a RAW deal! Fortunately, they rarely paid over a few hundred dollars so it is a fairly cheap learning experience and they are advised to stick with slabbed coins from the major TPGS's.
Plus, a family can go to almost anywhere and collect some very neat and unusual rocks. While teaching at the ANA Summer Seminars I found some excellent small specimens around the dorm! A trip up to Pike's Peak is even better.
Piffle! Collectors of Rocks? Minerals? Fossils? Sounds like a bunch of stoners to me
I believe the difference is in the nature of the item being collected, not in the presentation of the show.
Rocks have more diverse shapes, sizes and colors than coins.
They are more a "nature" thing than a manufactured thing. (Although there can be cutting / polishing involved).
You can have an adventure finding them in the outdoors, instead of the emphasis on buying and selling what was in someone else's collection.
I'm starting to get interested in ancient coins myself. I've always been a fan of Roman and Byzantine history. I'm surprised I never got into ancient numismatics. It's arguable that ancient numismatics requires more knowledge of history than US numismatics. Knowledge of history is essential to attributing ancient coins. After all much of what we know about the Greeks, Romans, and Byzantines are from their coinage. Ancient coins were propaganda pieces of generals, kings, and emperors. The cool thing is that grade is less important for ancient coins. Strike, eye appeal, and rarity matters more for ancients. And you can hold them in your hand without fear of harming the coin. Buying raw is encouraged. That's why so many ancient collectors are opposed to graded slabs. NGC slabs are redundant for authentication since their guarantee doesn't apply to ancient coins. I'm planning to purchase a Roman/Byzantine Solidus as my first ancient.
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Pick up the set of historical overviews Byzantium: The Apogee, The Early Centuries, The Decline and Fall (3 volumes) by John Julius Norwich, Concise, well written and good references to more detailed material.
Usually when I talk about "Byzantines" I call them Eastern Romans. After all, the Byzantine Empire was the original Eastern half of the Roman Empire. The citizens referred to themselves as Romans rather than "Byzantines." Yes, I realize the Byzantines spoke Greek rather than Latin. However, the Eastern portion of the empire had always been Greek speaking since the time of Augustus. Historically, Roman senators and emperors were required to be educated in both Latin and Greek. Latin may be the language of administration, but not all of the common folk spoke it. Latin was more prevalent in the Western provinces, Greek dominated in the Eastern provinces. Emperor Heraclius replaced Latin with Greek to better govern the Eastern Roman Empire. Heraclius making Greek the language of the realm doesn't make the Byzantines any less "Roman." The Byzantines still retained Roman laws, a Senate, bureaucracy, and imperial titles such as Caesar. The Byzantine Tagmata was a highly disciplined army just like Classic Roman Legions. In contrast, Western European knights and peasant levies lacked any discipline or chain of command. Many medieval historians criticize the Byzantine Empire for its various civil wars. However, the Classic Roman Empire was also plagued with civil wars and coups. The "Byzantine Empire" was merely a continuation of the Roman Dominate established by emperor Diocletian.
Sure, the Byzantines were quite "Oriental" in their culture. However the Classical Romans always were intrigued by Oriental culture. Hence all the mystery religions like Mithras. Even the adoption of Christianity is an example of Oriental influence in the Roman Empire. The way I think of it, everything the Romans did were improvements on Greek ideas. Roman Republicanism was an improvement on Greek Democracy. The Roman gods were Latinized versions of Greek gods. Romans and Greeks were always intertwined, hence the term "Greco-Roman culture." The notion that Byzantium was solely a "Greek Empire" is false. In reality it was a multi-ethnic state, just like the Classical Roman Empire. Various peoples such as Slavs, Bulgars, Armenians, Turks, Egyptians, Italians, Sicilians, and Syrians lived in the Byzantine Empire's boundaries.
The reason why the Byzantine Empire survived for over 1000 years after the fall of the Western Roman Empire was because they improved upon existing Roman institutions. The Thematic system was an improvement over the Provincial system. Emperors Justinian and Theodosius codified Roman law. If the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire never existed, Europe would've been conquered by the Islamic Caliphate centuries ago. I'd argue the Siege of Constantinople was more important than the Battle of Tours. It's unfortunate that historians called them "Byzantines" rather than what they really were, Romans. This historiographical name change was the reason why Byzantine history isn't being taught in schools. The average Joe wouldn't know of the Eastern Rome that survived the fall of Western Rome. If it wasn't for Byzantinum, we wouldn't have the Crusades and Renaissance. If it wasn't for Byzantium, Columbus wouldn't have sailed to the New World. Keep in mind, the Byzantine Empire was Europe's link to the Silk Road. The collapse of Constantinople inspired explorers to seek alternative routes to Asia, leading to the inadvertent discovery of America. The only time I think the term "Byzantine" is appropriate is in a numismatic context.
I'll try to read the books you've recommended over the summer. I currently have university finals.
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...and then there was Manzikert.
The Eastern Roman Empire literally became Western Roman Empire after Manzikert. They were almost entirely reliant on foreign mercenaries (Crusades). I liked reading about the pre-Manzikert armies with armored Kataphracts, Varangian Guard, Tagmata, and Themata.
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Most coin shows are announced and promoted within hobby publications and coin websites - preaching to the choir. Some additional promotion outside of the usual coin media could generate new interest. A national show could do target marketing to middle class and affluent segments.
I had a table at a regional convention to sell my book, several of the buyers said they saw the "coin show" sign on the street and decided to check it out, they never heard of Robert Scot but wanted to learn more about that period of history. I think there could be a lot of new interest in numismatics with the right marketing.
I don't understand the fascination over dinasours, to be honest, I think the Jurassic movies are boring as heck, imho, sorry for the tangent all
You're making judgement based on a movie? I could care less about films or pop culture portrayals. As a kid, I loved READING about dinosaurs. I liked learning new facts about their biology, as dinosaurs are warm blooded rather than cold blooded. A species named Troodon was highly intelligent. Scientists have hypothesized that Troodon might've evolved into a creature as intelligent as humans.
Similarly, I love reading about Egyptian, Roman, and Byzantine history. Again, I don't treat pop culture portrayals seriously. In fact, I'm annoyed about how historically inaccurate movies and documentaries are.
This documentary from History Channel is historically inaccurate. This documentary takes place during the 4th century. The Roman legions were depicted wearing "Lorica Segmentata", a type of plate armor. It's anachronistic to be portraying Roman soldiers wearing Lorica Segmentata. In reality, the Roman army stopped using Lorica Segmentata in the late 2nd century, with the armor being phased out in the early 3rd century. The reason why History Channel depicts Roman legions wearing Lorica Segmentata is because it looks "cool."
In reality, most 4th century Roman soldiers didn't wear armor. A contemporary historian, Vegetius, remarked about how most of the Roman infantry abandoned their heavy armor. Only the soldiers in the front ranks would be wearing armor, most likely in the form of chainmail or scale shirts. The soldiers in the above picture don't look like the stereotypical Roman legionnaires portrayed in popular culture. Pop culture also likes to talk about the "Fall of Rome" when in reality the Roman Empire survived until 1453, forty years before Columbus discovered America. The barbarians only conquered the Western Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman Empire survived 1000 years after the Western Empire collapsed. Modern historians called the Eastern Roman Empire the "Byzantine Empire."
My point is there is more to history than what is portrayed in movies. In my opinion, the portrayals in films are over exaggerated rubbish. There are people who are genuinely interested in dinosaurs or Romans because of history. It feels nice to be holding a million year old fossil or a Roman coin.
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Rocks are interesting... and cheap if you search for them in the wild....For kids, they are frequently the first interesting thing they collect (along with flowers for Mom). We hunted fossils as kids (lots of them here), along with arrow points, quartz and flint for fire starting. Coins were something that came later, but from change... not from a coin shop/show. To garner greater interest in shows, they must be widely advertised.... that will bring out those with old coins in drawers, or cigar boxes (they still have them?)... or Grandma's collection.... "What is this worth?"....Ads on the radio, TV, local paper and signs along the roads...Cheers, RickO
But wouldn't they look better if they were encased in huge plastic slabs, graded and stickered? They could then be traded like, say, 1881-S Morgan Dollars and appear on cable TV sales sites where they could be sold to the general public at wildly inflated prices!
CAC
It creates rarity but is not accompanied by ads.
The great thing about rocks is holding them.
I still think the most interesting slabbed collectible is a comic book since it can’t be read anymore.
Agree, and I’ll add that coins and medals are a man made artifact, with rocks being an earth treasure. Conjures up different interests, curiosity and emotions.
I once attended a high end audio show in Vegas that was booked next to the convention center from the AVN Adult Entertainment Expo. The overflow was pretty intense and after a day or so seeing a dominatrix in black latex with a guy on all fours on the floor leashed sitting next to a group of audiophiles listening to vinyl was pretty normal.
How did the traffic at those shows compare to coins shows?
You'd enjoy a few days at Dumbarton Oaks. Their Eastern Empire collection is excellent.
nice thread here, I like the good reads
Hoping that some people connected with coin "shows" will take note and put more "show" in the "coin show." For the present, they look just like a flea market held on an abandoned dirt race track.
Here are some of my inputs with my decades of experience in retailing business and shows within other industries.
If I am a coin dealer in a show I would:
Sell only uncirculated coins in 2x2 cardboard holders. it will be a form of quality assurance to both new comers and seasoned collectors while providing some sort of entertainment of cherry picking.
Set up different sections/ trays in form of $2, $5,$10, $20 ,$50 and a special section for the high ends. All the holders will be color coded. The truth is that everyone has a budget and feel more comfortable knowing the price tags ahead of time.
Have a large collection of coins designs in display. Somewhere between 90% wold coins and 10% U.S with different designs in each of the tray slots. Different years and population rarity will not be the priority. it will always be the design and appearance of the product that grabs customers' first attention.
Now imagine your young children tag along to a coin show. Will you feel comfortable giving them $20 to shop for any coin at my $2-$5 table sections? How about your best friend who has a sudden interest in coin collecting? At which table would he spend most of his time through out the show? And yourself, will you be curious and drop by since there are so much foot traffic at my table?
The Pate Swap meet last week had 23+ Miles of vendor spaces, spread out in a massive (NASCAR) track that went from Wednesday to Sunday, and it was packed. Yes, I walked all 23 miles each day, Thurs - Sat, as the stuff changes every day.