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Bernard Von Nothaus
bidask
Posts: 13,942 ✭✭✭✭✭
Anyone heard of this guy?
Are his coins he minted in demand?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_von_NotHaus
I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
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Yes, and somewhat.
He's selling cryptocurrency and Trump coins now. No Thanks.
bernardvonnothaus.org/home/
His son has a unique name:
Liberty Dollars were big in the early part of the 21st century. And then, they were not.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Thanks
Just curious why his coins did not catch on like Dan Carr coins ?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Bernard's coins did catch on but in a different way because they had different goals.
Dan's goal is to make limited mintage collector pieces which has been successful. Bernard's goal was to make an alternative currency for commerce, which was also successful but resulted in higher mintages and got him into trouble.
There are some collectors of Bernard's coins but, now that they cannot be used, there are a lot of the silver ones relative to the number of collectors. The gold, platinum and pewter ones have lower mintages and still seem to sell for healthy premiums.
A cross over piece is the 6th Anniversary Fair pewter piece which was struck by Ron Landis and Joe Rust of the Gallery Mint. I have a couple of these pewter pieces and a silver strike of this which may be unique.
https://sites.google.com/site/libertydollarencyclopedia/the-pewter-piece
One of the pewter pieces sold for $700 on 7/9/2016, after which more showed up. More recently, there were 4 of these offered for $450 each and 3 have sold:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-NORFED-PEWTER-PIECE-Sixth-Anniversary-Fair/183257499133
BvN was not making collector coins, he was trying to create an alternative currency. He got convicted of counterfeiting for his efforts.
Liberty Dollars are collected.
BVN assets were seized and I wonder how much if any were returned by Secret Service bullies. I own one nice beautifully toned prooflike coin
though.
instead of VDB its BVNH..... I like it !
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
My assets at Liberty Dollar (copper rounds awaiting delivery) were seized in the FBI raid. I participated in the legal process to get them back and I did eventually get them about ten years after I ordered and paid for them.
Most people who filed claims seemed to be looking for the return of silver. I may have been the only one chasing copper, but I did it for the experience and based on the principle.
I wonder if you could get the slabbed with a nice pedigree and label saying they had been seized?
Excellent idea and I had been hoping to do just that, but I don't think any TPG could guarantee the provenance since all the types of recovered rounds had also been distributed to some degree prior to the raid.
BvN did offer to add a special counterstamp to recovered "coins" that were sent to him at a cost of $10 each. The coppers only cost me $1 each originally, but I did pay to have him countetstamp the best 6 of my 20.
What kind of counterstamp was added? Do you have any pics? I’d love to see them.
The counterstamp said MA ( for Monetary Architect", which is what he called himself.)
I think they are in a pile nearby - I'll try to dig them out in the next couple days.
Crook. Nothing more or less.
The feds did not like it when they had $ amounts on them ($1, $5, $10, $20).
I had the feeling it was more that they didn't like it when communities started using it for currency. He was issuing these from 1998 to 2009 so it took a while for them to take action.
What exactly did he steal, Roger?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Trump coins???
what's that???
Fake news??? or Fake coins??
You can argue semantics of the word "crook", but BVNH was convicted of counterfeiting, following a jury trial in a Federal Court of Law in 2011. The conviction was upheld on appeal. BVNH is a convicted felon.
Wikipedia is rather kind: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_von_NotHaus
Crazy I just picked up 180 of them.....
Hoard the keys.
It's hard for me to attach the word, "crook" to someone wanting to circulate actual intrinsic value coins.
Especially when the Constitution said that's what the US coinage should be.
Some are considered collectible. With that said, many are likely turned off by the court adjudication declaring the liberty dollars to be counterfeits. Von Nothaus was convicted of counterfeiting actually.
If it makes you feel any better, BVNH issued some paper money too. It was not so popular, but may have made the Federales more mad.
This is almost as fun/controversial as a Daniel Carr thread.
This is 100% accurate, but the oversights in his defense in regard to coinage facts as provided by some "expert" witnesses would be mind boggling to most members here.
His "coins" were deemed counterfeit by reason of their "similtude" to US coins, but what about replicas, restrikes, fantasy coins, and bullion rounds that escape scrutiny?
Many of them too would run afoul of the same statutes depending on the circumstances.
Seems the feds left him alone until the Ron Paul editions where they made some media attention for Ron Paul for president. The seizure happened a short time later. I never had much with him but a couple hundred dollars, and said as above i got them back after about 10 years.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
The government does not tolerate competition....
Cheers, RickO
Defendant Convicted of Minting His Own Currency
U.S. Attorney’s Office
March 18, 2011
Western District of North Carolina
(704) 344-6222
STATESVILLE, NC—Bernard von NotHaus, 67, was convicted today by a federal jury of making, possessing, and selling his own coins, announced Anne M. Tompkins, U.S. Attorney for the Western District of North Carolina. Following an eight-day trial and less than two hours of deliberation, von NotHaus, the founder and monetary architect of a currency known as the Liberty Dollar, was found guilty by a jury in Statesville, North Carolina, of making coins resembling and similar to United States coins; of issuing, passing, selling, and possessing Liberty Dollar coins; of issuing and passing Liberty Dollar coins intended for use as current money; and of conspiracy against the United States. The guilty verdict concluded an investigation which began in 2005 and involved the minting of Liberty Dollar coins with a current value of approximately $7 million. Joining the U.S. Attorney Anne M. Tompkins in making today’s announcement are Edward J. Montooth, Acting Special Agent in Charge of the FBI, Charlotte Division; Russell F. Nelson, Special Agent in Charge of the United States Secret Service, Charlotte Division; and Sheriff Van Duncan of the Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office.
More at:
https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/charlotte/press-releases/2011/defendant-convicted-of-minting-his-own-currency
Is there any evidence anywhere that these coins ever actually circulated?
What's the condition census for lowballs? AU55-AU58-AU58-MS60-MS60-MS60?
Carry one as a pocket piece and someday you will have a rare coin.
No.
Conman, crook, counterfeiter. Nothing else.
Also ran the Hawaiian Mint before the Liberty Dollar fiasco
Certainly the idea of putting face value on his coins was well thought out and one would guess that he knew exactly what he was doing.
Is he the only one to ever be convicted of this? Is this outlawed in the Coinage Act of 1864?
His conviction was not for the entire "scheme" but rather for creating some "coins" that were supposedly too close in appearance to legal tender coins. In that regard the case was a little weak.
Also, not all Liberty Dollars were deemed to be "counterfeit".
The judge had a thankless job and I think that by the time the trial was over there was little appetite for a prison sentence.
Also, as far as I know, there were no "victims". That is, no one sued him. His distributors were willing participants, and they did get some LDs into "circulation".
Only the government had an issue with him.
They look nice, did you get them for face?
The earlier Hawaiian Mint "Dala" medals were very high quality and most had very limited mintages. There are dozens of other examples and some versions only 20 or so were ever minted. These medals are not "counterfeit", but examples of some interesting Hawaiian history and they are very collectable medals. The "currency" like that shown was a certificate with silver backing. Not resembling anything like US currency.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
One of his interesting and very rare proof copper medals. There were some other more mass produced copper rounds mentioned above, but this one was special and was too expensive to mint in bulk.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
No at melt. I Lucked out he was going to toss them in a bucket for scrap I picked some other stuff as well.
Hoard the keys.
Many decades from now, Bernard Von Nauthaus's NORFED dollars will be collected the same way as other political pieces such as Lesher Referendum dollars and Bryan dollars.
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Digging up old threads is lame...……
I just landed my first NORFED, kind of interesting story.
I may have to get a few more.
Excellent transaction with: ffcoins, Proofmorgan, fivecents, MorganMan94
At least he has a felony record for life. It is amazing, however, that the government chose to go after him (likely for political reasons) while letting other, more vexing counterfeiters, continue their operations with impunity.
Not a crook, buyers new exactly what they were buying and he delivered exactly what they bought.
Economic headlines the mainstream media are hiding from you.
Merriam-Webster's:
crook noun
4: a person who engages in fraudulent or criminal practices
He was founded to have violated the federal counterfeiting statutes and is now a convicted felon. He is very much a crook regardless of whether most here consider him a villain or not. Maybe others will wake up and realize that intent to defraud is not an element of the offense of counterfeiting for the production of the pieces (as opposed to uttering or possession offenses) and that "no one was harmed" is not a good defense. If these were viable defenses, Von Nothaus would have been acquitted or his conviction vacated on appeal.
The reason he was convicted of counterfeiting was because he attempted to create a new, different product to be used in commerce transactions. Gov didn't want the competition. While similar, he in no way attempted to duplicate US coinage. His coins were unique. His downfall was trying to create a market for his coins by attempting to convince others/merchants to use them instead of coins produced by the government. If you look at all of his coins, none of them come close to duplicating a US Mint product. Had he not actively promoted using them in commerce he would have been just another lawful minter of silver, gold and copper rounds.
The prosecution in the von NotHaus case stood on the claim that because the Liberty Dollar organization was 'selling' silver and gold specie at a price in US dollars that was above their market metal value at the time they were sold, that fraud was being committed. If that were truly the case, then every company manufacturing goods is committing fraud by charging a price that is above the intrinsic value of the material from which the product is made. The counterfeit charge was the best the Gov could come with to address his attempt to introduce a competing coin. The light sentence is proof that they were only interested in eliminating his and any other future money competition.
The long arm of the law is often crooked, not strait. Look for yourself and tell me how these coins are counterfeits of US coins:
Economic headlines the mainstream media are hiding from you.
I think the judge was not convinced of the criminality of what he was doing, therefore he levied a light sentence.
One of the realities of the jury system is many people will presume guilt until innocence is proved. If you doubt this stop to think about it a bit.
How many times when a suspect is arrested for murder are you sure that he is guilty?
Have you ever thought 'He does look like a murderer, crook, embezzler, or plain evil?
Everyone has at one time or another, including the 12 people sitting on the jury. They see this guy sitting with his attorney at the Defense table and cannot help but think he must be guilty of something or the government would not have taken it this far.
Even if only 5 of twelve think like this it is weighted heavily to the prosecution's favor.