You pick the grade...

Insider2 · April 17, 2019 10:23AM

You are in the grading room. You examine an Indian cent with no obvious flaws, no rub, and attractive brown-red original luster. Then you see it! Three areas of the edge have obvious green-black corrosion deposits that have eaten into the edge. You are able to remove much of the worse damage but the edge is still corroded in spots. It is not visible on the rim so once the coin is put into the insert, it will not show - UNLESS the coin is broken out of the slab. What do you grade it as no one will know the condition of the edge if you straight grade it. There is no liability to the company either as once the coin is removed from the slab the guarantee is void. Oh, you can "NET GRADE" the coin and then folks will think the TPGS graders are blind as there is no way this beautiful coin will match the lower grade on its label!

keets · April 17, 2019 10:37AM

what do I win??

BuffaloIronTail · April 17, 2019 11:14AM

LOL.....................See what you started???

Pete

Smudge · April 17, 2019 11:19AM

No win situation for an honest grader.

1630Boston · April 17, 2019 11:22AM

Details, with an explanation on the label

lkenefic · April 17, 2019 11:25AM

UNC details... I was going to say, you could flip a coin, but...

BryceM · April 17, 2019 11:28AM

Put it in an edge-view holder, of course. There is no issue here. You either call balls and strikes as you see them or you aren't credible with anything. If the gunk is severe enough to make it a details coin, call it one, and indicate why on the label.

The scenario does raise certain questions with regard to businesses that apply stickers to holders without being able to see the whole coin.......

Eric_Babula · April 17, 2019 11:34AM

I agree with BryceM - call it what it is. The coin owner will not like it, but the truth is that the coin has issues, and should be labeled as such.

ChrisH821 · April 17, 2019 11:35AM

If it's bad enough to detail it, then I think your hands are tied. You could maybe do a cut-out on the insert so that it's visible and no one has to imagine what it looks like. If you straight grade it and it later crosses at another company they will be in a pickle once they remove it from the holder and find edge corrosion.

Eric_Babula · April 17, 2019 11:35AM

I gotta get a real picture in my profile!

Hallco · April 17, 2019 11:37AM

@Eric_Babula said:
I gotta get a real picture in my profile!

That's not you?

thisistheshow · April 17, 2019 2:50PM

I chose Unc, Details....but what is the normal protocol?

dlmtorts · April 17, 2019 4:23PM

The poll is a bit suggestive since we can’t see the coin and the only straight grade option is a high grade. As of now that option has zero votes. The net grade option is criticized in the poll itself. The runaway winner is the details grade. Fair disclosure - I was influenced by those factors too (knowingly in my case). I still voted details.

Insider, I don’t intend this as a criticism - just an observation. I enjoy your thought provoking posts. This would be a difficult poll question to set up and despite my observation, I think you did well. You are causing all of us to reflect on the right thing to when we could satisfy the submitter or do what might be right but would make us look bad. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and insight!

MFeld · April 17, 2019 4:30PM

@dlmtorts said:
The poll is a bit suggestive since we can’t see the coin and the only straight grade option is a high grade. As of now that option has zero votes. The net grade option is criticized in the poll itself. The runaway winner is the details grade. Fair disclosure - I was influenced by those factors too (knowingly in my case). I still voted details.

Insider, I don’t intend this as a criticism - just an observation. I enjoy your thought provoking posts. This would be a difficult poll question to set up and despite my observation, I think you did well. You are causing all of us to reflect on the right thing to when we could satisfy the submitter or do what might be right but would make us look bad. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and insight!

What is it that “might be right but which would make us look bad”? Net grade the coin? Either way, wouldn't the most “right” thing to do be to assign a details grade and disclose why?

karenren · April 17, 2019 4:30PM

I voted and I chose the second answer.

ACop · April 17, 2019 4:33PM

@keets said:
what do I win??

A smaller sig

dlmtorts · April 17, 2019 4:37PM

MFeld - I wasn’t expressing my opinion. I was simply pointing out what could be a thought process for some. I agree with you on what I would personally do. Note that I voted details.

MFeld · April 17, 2019 4:40PM

@dlmtorts said:
MFeld - I wasn’t expressing my opinion. I was simply pointing out what could be a thought process for some. I agree with you on what I would personally do. Note that I voted details.

Thank you.

koynekwest · April 17, 2019 5:15PM

Number two. Honesty is best.

asheland · April 17, 2019 5:20PM

Details. The graders owe the submitter an honest non biased grade.

jabba · April 17, 2019 5:41PM

The vams are fun to look at

JeffMTampa · April 17, 2019 5:48PM

Skip- I like the way you think.

KOYNGUY · April 17, 2019 6:36PM

An independent grader has a responsibility to two parties, the submitter and the end owner. Favor one, lose the other. ALL coins will eventually come out of the plastic. At ANACS, the joke is any infractions will eventually face "The grading crimes tribunal" #2 is the only choice, again assuming you are truly an independent grader. J.P.

Timbuk3 · April 17, 2019 6:37PM

Unc detail, tell it like it is !!!

morgandollar1878 · April 17, 2019 9:33PM

Bad rim dings on a coin will get a details grade, so why not corrosion? Call it what it is, it's a problem coin and should be labeled as such with an explanation on the holder.

Insider2 · April 19, 2019 7:37AM

My OP is strictly a thought provoking exercise with no basis in reality. No coins have been damaged to provide the example stated in the poll.

@MFeld said: "What is it that “might be right but which would make us look bad”? Net grade the coin? Either way, wouldn't the most “right” thing to do be to assign a details grade and disclose why?"

THIS:

@KOYNGUY said: "An independent grader has a responsibility to two parties, the submitter and the end owner. Favor one, lose the other. ALL coins will eventually come out of the plastic. At ANACS, the joke is any infractions will eventually face "The grading crimes tribunal" #2 is the only choice, again assuming you are truly an independent grader."

Thanks for your perspective JP. I'll add that a grader needs to be fair to the coin too. Most of us in the poll decided to do the right and honest thing - "detail" the coin. At the first TPGS, it would have been graded technically as MS-65, corroded edge. But back then the coin was not in a slab.

Today,each time a TPGS opinion is given, we must assume that a judgement was made with regard to what the coin's commercial VALUE is. That's possibly why folks have posted coins with actual damage (corrosion, lg. scratches, etc) that are straight graded. Perhaps they were netted down to establish a value. I don't have one of the past examples that were posted. I'm out of that game because I'm no longer a rookie dealer (three years) and have no idea what most the coins I examine sell for. I judge them by their characteristics alone and let the others down the line "price" them.

Furthermore, a TPGS is a business. What do you think happens if a service were to become too conservative or focused more on the collector's needs when the dealers pay the light bill? So it may not be as simple as: "Do the right thing" after all.

jesbroken · April 19, 2019 8:52AM

Several have mentioned details and tell why. I agree with this but why just this coin. Why isn't any coin detailed with small explanation?
Jim

TwoSides2aCoin · April 19, 2019 9:04AM

Truth. There's nothing complex about it. If it's got a problem which is hidden, it's still a problem.

ricko · April 19, 2019 9:20AM

Details, corroded edge.... Honesty is the best policy....Cheers, RickO

Insider2 · April 19, 2019 9:22AM

@jesbroken said:
Several have mentioned details and tell why. I agree with this but why just this coin. Why isn't any coin detailed with small explanation?
Jim

Where are you going to put the explanation? In the old days, the grade was on a card - separate from the coin - with plenty of room to add notes. We did not get several thousands of coin as day to grade either!

291fifth · April 19, 2019 9:25AM

Unc, details, corroded rim.

Insider2 · April 19, 2019 9:27AM

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Truth. There's nothing complex about it. If it's got a problem which is hidden, it's still a problem.

MORE TRUTH: If it has a problem that is missed, it;s still a problem.
EVEN MORE TRUTH: When do continuous hairlines become cleaning?

When is a coin considered polished and not just cleaned? This is a "line" that from what I see is virtually ignored. Have you ever seen a coin labeled "polished or buffed" on the label before?

jesbroken · April 19, 2019 9:57AM

@Insider2 Where are you going to put the explanation? In the old days, the grade was on a card - separate from the coin - with plenty of room to add notes. We did not get several thousands of coin as day to grade either!

Plenty of numbers left. In this case a simple details rim would suffice or details #? Yes, there might be a couple that require extra wording which could be done with #a. But it could be done. JMO
Jim

Insider2 · April 19, 2019 10:08AM

@jesbroken said: "Plenty of numbers left. In this case a simple details rim would suffice or details #? Yes, there might be a couple that require extra wording which could be done with #a. But it could be done. "

You must know more about the # of spaces available in each field of the label than I do.

jesbroken · April 19, 2019 10:49AM

@Insider2 You must know more about the # of spaces available in each field of the label than I do.

Gosh, I hope not. I still long for the old photo certification cards with front and reverse grades. lol
Jim

KOYNGUY · April 19, 2019 11:33AM

Skip, We have known each other for many years, and we have evaluated millions of coins for collectors. I think we share many common philosophies on coin certification. Here are a few of my thoughts.

One of my greatest strengths is knowing my limitations.
In my position you have to know when you are on thin ice and what the ramifications are of overstepping your abilities. Having said that I never succumbed to the mantra that XYZ co. has the best graders in the world! No one knows it all, and when you think you do, you lose your ability to learn and grow. Consultants have taught
me many things, especially in authentication, our common cause

Experience is everything. You only develop perspective when you have seen the worst and the best. You gain a better appreciation for an ms-68 morgan dollar not just by seeing hundreds of 65-67 coins, but 500,000 ms-62's. The fully struck 1892-O dollar after thousands of no ear weakly struck coins.real unc 1884-S after countless AU's, gem virgin copper after thousands of "improved" coins. Whiz kids come and go. But f they buckle down and make a study of numismatics, they gain real credibility and perhaps a career.

Knowing your grade is not written in stone. If I graded like I did as a young dealer in 1979, I would not be employed as a grader and could not make a living in coins. Grading is a moving target. Changes are slow, glacial, but over decades they are definite. I remember thinking when slabs first came out that this loose dealer grading would be their downfall. Now they are eagerly sought out due to the conservative nature. As a QC, or finalizer I see 2 grades for many coins. If not, I would only use my own grades. I must incorporate others input.

Pertaining to this thread, I see grading as telling a story about a coin. Where it fits in based on my experience, I
have to do it in the shorthand of the 70 point scale which is both a pro and con of the system. I have to consider the submitter's desire to maximize the positive aspects, and continue to do business with us. On the other hand, the end user or collector is counting on me to holder the coin consistent with other coins and the current standard and to represent any negative (corroded edge) accurately. without the support of both you will fail. In spite of pressures either way, you must find the sweet spot where every one can comfortably exist.

As a professional, I am allowed to voice my numismatic opinion as I see fit. I am grateful to be in that situation and am aware that most likely, not all graders have that luxury. By the same token, if my grading becomes out of step with the direction or philosopy of my firm, I understand that my employer, or I, may make changes. I have never been fired but have resigned over management direction.

I was drawn to ANA and ANACS by the young graders behind the table in the early 1980's. Here we a bunch of guys that seemed to have all the answers that were there to help with free opinions as to real/ fake, grade, attribution, willing to meet you face to face and give you any help you desire. Compared to the win/ lose, cutthroat atmosphere of the bourse floor. this appealed to me. I liked the good karma aspect of it.
Now I knew ANA was a non-profit. and I knew I would never get rich, but I thought a couple years there would not do me any harm. Little did I know were it would lead. J.P. Martin

Insider2 · April 19, 2019 12:26PM

@KOYNGUY said:
Skip, We have known each other for many years, and we have evaluated millions of coins for collectors. I think we share many common philosophies on coin certification. Here are a few of my thoughts.

One of my greatest strengths is knowing my limitations.
In my position you have to know when you are on thin ice and what the ramifications are of overstepping your abilities. Having said that I never succumbed to the mantra that XYZ co. has the best graders in the world! No one knows it all, and when you think you do, you lose your ability to learn and grow. Consultants have taught
me many things, especially in authentication, our common cause

Experience is everything. You only develop perspective when you have seen the worst and the best. You gain a better appreciation for an ms-68 morgan dollar not just by seeing hundreds of 65-67 coins, but 500,000 ms-62's. The fully struck 1892-O dollar after thousands of no ear weakly struck coins.real unc 1884-S after countless AU's, gem virgin copper after thousands of "improved" coins. Whiz kids come and go. But f they buckle down and make a study of numismatics, they gain real credibility and perhaps a career.

Knowing your grade is not written in stone. If I graded like I did as a young dealer in 1979, I would not be employed as a grader and could not make a living in coins. Grading is a moving target. Changes are slow, glacial, but over decades they are definite. I remember thinking when slabs first came out that this loose dealer grading would be their downfall. Now they are eagerly sought out due to the conservative nature. As a QC, or finalizer I see 2 grades for many coins. If not, I would only use my own grades. I must incorporate others input.

Pertaining to this thread, I see grading as telling a story about a coin. Where it fits in based on my experience, I
have to do it in the shorthand of the 70 point scale which is both a pro and con of the system. I have to consider the submitter's desire to maximize the positive aspects, and continue to do business with us. On the other hand, the end user or collector is counting on me to holder the coin consistent with other coins and the current standard and to represent any negative (corroded edge) accurately. without the support of both you will fail. In spite of pressures either way, you must find the sweet spot where every one can comfortably exist.

As a professional, I am allowed to voice my numismatic opinion as I see fit. I am grateful to be in that situation and am aware that most likely, not all graders have that luxury. By the same token, if my grading becomes out of step with the direction or philosopy of my firm, I understand that my employer, or I, may make changes. I have never been fired but have resigned over management direction.

I was drawn to ANA and ANACS by the young graders behind the table in the early 1980's. Here we a bunch of guys that seemed to have all the answers that were there to help with free opinions as to real/ fake, grade, attribution, willing to meet you face to face and give you any help you desire. Compared to the win/ lose, cutthroat atmosphere of the bourse floor. this appealed to me. I liked the good karma aspect of it.
Now I knew ANA was a non-profit. and I knew I would never get rich, but I thought a couple years there would not do me any harm. Little did I know were it would lead. J.P. Martin

I HOPE this gets posted in BEST OF.

KOYNGUY · April 19, 2019 4:47PM

I'm not sure what "best of" is, J.P,
'

'

Insider2 · April 19, 2019 5:07PM

Go to the home page and look at the bar with "DISCUSSIONS, ACTIVITY, BEST OF, ..."

KOYNGUY · April 19, 2019 5:14PM

GOTCHA, Looks like an honor. Thank-you Skip. J.P.

MFeld · April 19, 2019 5:39PM

@KOYNGUY said:
Skip, We have known each other for many years, and we have evaluated millions of coins for collectors. I think we share many common philosophies on coin certification. Here are a few of my thoughts.

One of my greatest strengths is knowing my limitations.

In my position you have to know when you are on thin ice and what the ramifications are of overstepping your abilities. Having said that I never succumbed to the mantra that XYZ co. has the best graders in the world! No one knows it all, and when you think you do, you lose your ability to learn and grow. Consultants have taught
me many things, especially in authentication, our common cause

Experience is everything. You only develop perspective when you have seen the worst and the best. You gain a better appreciation for an ms-68 morgan dollar not just by seeing hundreds of 65-67 coins, but 500,000 ms-62's. The fully struck 1892-O dollar after thousands of no ear weakly struck coins.real unc 1884-S after countless AU's, gem virgin copper after thousands of "improved" coins. Whiz kids come and go. But f they buckle down and make a study of numismatics, they gain real credibility and perhaps a career.

Knowing your grade is not written in stone. If I graded like I did as a young dealer in 1979, I would not be employed as a grader and could not make a living in coins. Grading is a moving target. Changes are slow, glacial, but over decades they are definite. I remember thinking when slabs first came out that this loose dealer grading would be their downfall. Now they are eagerly sought out due to the conservative nature. As a QC, or finalizer I see 2 grades for many coins. If not, I would only use my own grades. I must incorporate others input.

Pertaining to this thread, I see grading as telling a story about a coin. Where it fits in based on my experience, I
have to do it in the shorthand of the 70 point scale which is both a pro and con of the system. I have to consider the submitter's desire to maximize the positive aspects, and continue to do business with us. On the other hand, the end user or collector is counting on me to holder the coin consistent with other coins and the current standard and to represent any negative (corroded edge) accurately. without the support of both you will fail. In spite of pressures either way, you must find the sweet spot where every one can comfortably exist.

As a professional, I am allowed to voice my numismatic opinion as I see fit. I am grateful to be in that situation and am aware that most likely, not all graders have that luxury. By the same token, if my grading becomes out of step with the direction or philosopy of my firm, I understand that my employer, or I, may make changes. I have never been fired but have resigned over management direction.

I was drawn to ANA and ANACS by the young graders behind the table in the early 1980's. Here we a bunch of guys that seemed to have all the answers that were there to help with free opinions as to real/ fake, grade, attribution, willing to meet you face to face and give you any help you desire. Compared to the win/ lose, cutthroat atmosphere of the bourse floor. this appealed to me. I liked the good karma aspect of it.
Now I knew ANA was a non-profit. and I knew I would never get rich, but I thought a couple years there would not do me any harm. Little did I know were it would lead. J.P. Martin

J.P., it’s great to see you posting here.

KOYNGUY · April 20, 2019 8:56AM

Hello Mark,
I followed your career early, but lost track of you. I see you are in the big leagues with Heritage now. I always will remember briefly working with you in the NGC grading room in 96 while I was viewing Eliasburg. I will always wonder how life would have been different had I accepted the position there (at 4x my ANA salary! ).
I think after spending time in the traffic jams on Chicago's "expressways" made me appreciate laid back Colorado too much. I would have loved to work with you and ken Krah and the rest of the team. My best , J.P.

VanHalen · April 20, 2019 9:26AM

Rim vs edge. I thought the two terms synonymous until now.

You pick the grade...

You pick the grade...

You pick the grade... 73 votes

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