1964 LMC SMS?
Bigcrypto
Posts: 88 ✭
Well going through some bank rolls from 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 never opened straight from the mint some amazing coins inside these rolls. Then I came across several of these 1964 with this satin finish it truly is amazing compared to the other coins and definitely diffrent they stood out instantly. looking for the Veterans for some help on these a I also found several coins with toning going on in the 1963s i will list later. Thanks for your replies more picks are coming later
0
Answers
They look like normal business strike examples to me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The 1964 SMS coins were not released into circulation. Their pedigree is: Mint Director Eva Adams; Coin dealer Lester Merkin; Stacks auction 1990's; Jess Lipka; Various owners.
I was offered all of them from Jess for something like $50,000 in 1993, which, before they got identified as "SMS", I thought was ridiculous. I should have bought them as their true value would likely be 50X that number today. Having the registry and the identification on the PCGS label makes all the difference in the world.
There are no "1964 Special Mint Set" coins. They are simply very early strikes from new dies -- a part of the normal range of product produced in making coins. This is confirmed by examination of reference pieces in the Smithsonian NNC.
The OP's cents are entirely normal.
Rick, “50X that number would be $2,500,000. Based on the populations (and considering resubmissions are likely included) and what the coins have sold for, I don’t understand how you arrived at such a high figure.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
1964 cents were produced in huge numbers from many, many dies which went through various states of wear and preparation. The coins you have are regular circulation strikes and would command little (or probably no) premium over face value.
Hind sight is 20/20 Wow amazing right. Yes that is true and nobody knows just how many are really out there. They truly are an amazing finish they stand out like a sore thumb the color and finish is definitely diffrent. For sure I am doing the research and The mint mark thing from 65 to 67 started this and lets be realist there out there and nobody knows just how many are really out there I will take some better picks today thank you Rick Snow @eagle eye. That was a great Story of the history I wish you would have purchased them thanks again
" I will take some better picks today "
That may help show something we are not seeing. From someone who has searched the 1964 date and looked at thousands of them I would say you have a very nice business strike nothing more.
Send them in for slabbing and authentication.
0> @291fifth said:
Why?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If authenticated and slabbed they might be worth ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!!
Thank you all for your responses just getting this new camera set up today soon my pics will be like you have the coin in your hand then things might look a little bit different. I am into some beautiful old stuff right now unbelievable found another beautiful rare magnet hugger with s mint mark. I will post some stuff later today thank you all again for your responses you all are appreciated.
Some readers might not have known you were being facetious.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I do not think those are SMS cents....They look like standard issue cents with varying degrees of die wear. Cheers, RickO
Other experts obviously disagree. And thats why they are in pcgs holders.
No offense intended to Roger but there are enough of them around and have been evaluated and examined by
enough “experts” in the field to come to a different determination.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
The SMS moniker was given by the grading services. They are really "Special finish and strike" coins. There is a difference in them. @MFfeld - I should have said something less specific. LIke, "much. much, much more!"
😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
These are obviously not the special coins from 1964. Unfortunately, with their mysterious origins, comes frantic excitement about normal 1964 dated coins with similar die scratches, usually from people entering the hobby and hearing about 1964 SMS having high value. Kind of like the 1969-s doubled die cents. 99.99999% of the time, it is machine doubling.
In the case of the "SMS" coins from 1964, they were NEVER released in circulation and finding one in the wild would be akin to being struck by lightning while riding a unicorn back from purchasing the winning power ball ticket on Friday the 13th.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
BUFFNIXX et al:
Grading companies invented the "1964 SMS" falsehood. All that was done was to look at some coins and decide they were "special" because of superficial appearance - not objective research and comparison with well-documented coins.
This is a too-common practice which ignores the normal progression of coins struck from ordinary dies as they are used. Sadly, it is an ignorant and unwarranted practice which detracts from the truth.
I am occasionally asked to examine "specimen," "SMS," "branch mint proofs," and other coins with unusual descriptions. In about 60% of the examinations, claims of something special are clearly false. The so-called "experts" missed obvious effects of die repair, smoothing, very early manufacture, and even worn/clashed/resurfaced/retouched dies. Much of this can be attributed continued circulation of false and incomplete information about basic coining machinery, equipment, techniques and technology. Yes, the remaining 20% are special and correctly attributed - they live up to the label; and another 20% cannot be determined. (If no determination can be made, the piece remains ambiguous - it is what it is until we learn more.)
There is, in my opinion, no justification for ANY special designation unless it can be objectively established through detailed examination and, hopefully, supporting documentation.The whole practice reminds me of Breen's false attributions and authentications tossed off in purple prose upon payment of a fee; or invention of exclusive terminology to boost the price of an item.
Another **newbie ** with SMS question. Seems like one every few months. Not sure where they come up with it a very rare and not common knowledge as I was unawre of it and been collecting many years. Learn something here on these forums
TO Op you might have done a search here as it was discussed in depth and elsewhere.
I think you’re being unfairly harsh on the OP. Do a web search for a 1964 cent and you should be introduced to SMS coins. And there are many threads started here (including some by long time posters) which have already been discussed.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
>
This is one of those things that I have trouble with.
First, Mr Snow, I respect you as a numismatist and realize that in fifty years of collecting coins I have learned less than you have forgotten. I mean no disrespect in any way.
Why did Director Adams cause to be made special coins, or sets of special coins for one dealer only?
Was there any knowledge of these special sets by the general numismatic community prior to the Stack's auction in the 1990's?
What year was that auction?
Why did the original dealer not market them in some way?
What was the logic in minting such special sets?
Were you offered complete sets in some sort of identifiable mint packaging?
This whole thing just hits off center for me.
I believe nothing, know little, and think a lot.
@RogerB
Not to fan the flames, but have you personally examined the "1964 SMS" coins in hand?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
PCGS does acknowledge ( even if not on the label) them as a special strike. For those who have not read the coin facts info -
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1964-1c-sms-rd/3284
I don't think that pedigree means they were made for a coin dealer. i assume they were sold by her estate to the coin dealer.
I see them as presentation-type coins that only exist due to their provenance linking them to the mint director. Without being able to link them back to that source, they do not qualify for that designation.
Sort of like Glenna Goodacre's 5000 Sacagawea dollars.
As I peruse the pcgs population report for 1964 pcgs SMS Lincoln head cents I see many entries for this coin with
valuations up to $25,000. And Jefferson nickels have prices ranging up to $6000 for a “68” piece. Moving along to the dimes
I see 1964 Roosevelt sms coins value at $3000 for a 64 up to $6000 for a 68. Now moving along to Washington quarters
we have prices of $3500 to $13500 for 63 to 68 pieces. And finally for Kennedy half dollars we got prices up to $65000
for coins in 69 down to a humble $14,500 for a humble ms64 piece.
It seems to me that enough numismatists and collectors have given their approval to this coin many of whom have put their money behind it. To those who do not like this coin I say “BaaaaaWaaaaaaah”!
Get over it!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
It seems to me that enough numismatists and collectors have given their approval to the 1896, 1900, and 1902 Micro O Morgan Dollar, many of whom have put their money behind it. To those who do not like these coin I say “BaaaaaWaaaaaaah”!
Get over it!
but that's different, right?
The fantasy of finding 1964 SMS coins in circulation endures...
Nope.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"