Possible Clues to Artificial Toning and Original Toning.
Insider2
Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
I just heard a comment that I never considered about toning. I'm going to post it below to start a discussion here.
First, I'll suggest members take anything posted in this thread as only opinion and try to verify it for yourself.
Second, I'd like to read things that you have read/heard about ways to identify AT and NT. Images would be helpful.
Third, this discussion is for education. I think it has already been proven sufficiently that two knowledgeable professionals can look at the same toned coin and have a different opinion about its originality.
This is what I just heard for the first time: "It is pretty rare to get original rainbow toning on both sides of a coin?
I'd be interested in reading BOTH your opinion on that statement AND I'd like to have you ADD additional statements about toning that we can think/talk about.
Comments
I don't know about rare, that seems to overstate how unusual it is. I think it is far more common to have it be uneven.
The classic example to me are Canadian cased dollars. They frequently develop lovely blue and red toning on ONE side due to the presence of a piece of foam on one side of the case while the reason here seems unique, it is more generally true that most coins in classic times were housed in cabinets or albums. That creates an inherently asymmetric environment for the coin.
To get uniform toning "naturally" [you can decide what counts] you need uniform environments. That would mean flipping the coin in your cabinet or album. In fact, people do this with the cased dollars: buy them with the nonarchival foam still present and flip them so the white side gets the foam.
The statement is, in general, true. Often tarnish develops on one side, due to the other side being 'protected' by the storage method employed. While two sided tarnish is possible, it is unique since due to the nature of coins, one side is often segregated from the exposure effects of the other side. Albums with holes that allow coins two sided exposure often produce coins with both sides tarnished...Though not guaranteed. Cheers, RickO
Great points. I believe Source and reputation of coin plays a roll in close calls between AT vs NT. For example if a person who has submitted many AT coins in the past, will be scrutinized more then someone who has got a good track record.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Well, first you need to determine what rare is. Two sided toned coins are readily available at any time with online resources.
Second, no toning is original. It is an effect of various elements of how and where the coin was stored and/or treated.
it is the effect of a chemical reaction of the silver - that can be causated in too numerous of ways to list.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
@gtstang said: "Second, no toning is original. It is an effect of various elements of how and where the coin was stored and/or treated."
IMHO, this comment may confused a lot of readers. While what you posted about how coins may tone is true (you forgot to add that toning is just DAMAGE to the surface), it has no bearing on the decision if a particular toned coin has been "helped by the hand of man!"
Oy Vey.
@TradesWithChops said: "It is [toning] the effect of a chemical reaction of the silver - that can be causated in too numerous of ways to list.
I think It would be helpful if you (or some other member) could list some of the reactions or environments.
I agree with that statement. I have albums with rainbow toned coins. The old blue Whitman albums seem to create that toning over many years/decades. However, it is usually limited to the obverse. My hypothesis for that is that the coins are usually pushed in place from the front. Because of that mine seem to routinely have more space between the slide and the coin on the obverse side. So with less room for air movement, they do not tone as much on the reverse.
Dansco albums seem to impart a more golden toning in my experience.
Do any of your Whitman coins show color bars on their reverse?
I'd estimate 85% of what's "classified" NT is actually AT. Hard boiled eggs and Taco Bell napkins are plentiful. Regards!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Perhaps, you should do a step-by-step to show everyone how easy it is to make a coin that passes as NT. OR better yet, do your "magic"and send a before/middle/after PM to a few collectors of toning to evaluate the result.
A point well taken in the digital world.> @Kkathyl said:
1970-s Lincoln proofs come to mind - I've often wondered - when in the original packaging, it is very typical for the silver/nickel coins to be a hazy blue even on both sides, but the Lincoln is target/rainbow on the obverse, and nothing on the reverse. How does this happen within the same packaging?
Two more - case in point
Insider said “Do any of your Whitman coins show color bars on their reverse?”
Yes, some, but not many, have minor rainbows on the reverse, but they are mostly incomplete circles, unlike the obverse.
Tom B.
Where are you?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Good discussion.
Your questions are sort of all over the place so the responses may be too.
I learned here that pull away toning was a good sign of NT. But recently someone here was saying that they had a technique to replicate pull away toning. I'm not exactly sure who it was but I think they've since been bammed.
I trust my gut. If the toning seems wonky to me then that's it. I'm over it and move on.
I'd agree that two sided rainbows are rare. Two sided toners are not so rare.
@jmlanzaf brings a great point about flipping coins during storage. I've stumbled upon this myself.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
If you think that toning is just damage to a coin, why do you care about opinions on whether it is artificial or natural? You have confused readers even moreso.
Apparently, my attempt at illustrating the humor derived from the words of the "experts" who are technically correct concerning oxidation was confusing. Sometimes being 100% correct can be silly in the real world. Like it or not, spectacular toning patterns and color add value to coins in the eyes of many.
i know this is NT. Pulled from an old album owned by a very old collector. MS65RB
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
I know this is NT. Pulled from a mint-issue cardboard mint set holder. MS67BN
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Actually you have posted an image of a coin that was improperly dipped - NOT NEUTRALIZED. I suspect the reverse was not toned when it was graded. After time, the dip residue caused the brown stains that flow around the reverse devices!
I think the real question is whether or not the action that caused the toning was 'intentional'. Most average collectors I believe put their coins in albums, folders, and other holders with no knowledge or intention that they might tone. The primary goal quite often is nothing more than working to complete a set in an organized manor. I know that prior to my joining these forums I knew nothing on the difference between AT and NT. I didn't even think of or know of any of the effects my albums and other holders may have on the coins. So was it really the 'intentional' actions to attempt to gain value?
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Well now that you are here, you have an EXCELLENT example of a previously dipped coin that was improperly neutralized.
I agree with the statement.
Two-sided, naturally toned rainbow coins are obviously possible, but I try to avoid them. I assume an AT doctor has been busily working on it. I get the same feeling when I see a 'blast white' 100 year old coin. Again, I assume a dip doctor has been busy, time to move on. To each his own, but there are too many other nice coins out there for me.
Have fun!
Dave
Personally, one of the things I look for is the same color across elements of a coin that would have different metal hardness (fields vs legend) and would result in different rate of reaction.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Well, I don't know anything, but I've always found it odd that there seem to be 2 or 3 obverse Morgan toners for every reverse Morgan toner. I'm pretty sure they didn't emerge from the mint bags this way. A person could do a little research project on this and determine, with a reasonable degree of accuracy, how many of them had help.
This is a great point. It is also very curious that the obverses are generally more beat up on the BU coins. A bag of dollars is heavy. If the contact marks were created by tossing them around, both sides should be beat up fairly equally no matter if the obverse is more open. So I always thought that most of the really heavy marks came when they dropped off the press bed into a container, Since they all start obverse up they must turn a few times in the air. Nevertheless, as the container fills then the fall would be shorter and the opposite side would land "up" and take the hits. Perhaps the containers were emptied a such a rate that mostly the coins in the container were face up and took the hits.
You could be seeing 2x to 3x more obverse toners, but that is likely not representative of the true total population. There is likely some observation bias at work. Obverse toners command more value, collectors tend to display their obverse toners moreso than reverse toners, and they obviously trade hands more readily.
Personally, almost all common-date Morgans with bands of primarily dark gold, neon pink, and electric blue neatly bisecting the obverse look artificial to me.
An there are a lot of them,
more every day it seems.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Yes, graded correctly and could even go 65. As I wrote, I think the stain occurred long after it was graded. I'd contact PCGS and see if they can "fix" it for you. You'll probably need to pay postage both ways at the least.
Good topic... considering recent threads on toning in general. Here is the 90% Washington Quarter from my type set. It's one of the original pieces I purchased when I first started my Dansco 7070 ~2004. I purchased it raw, blast white, and put it in my album where it has resided ever since... around 15 years or so. I noticed it starting to tone a few years after I put it in the album. I got out of collecting about 7 years ago for a while, sold off the majority of my collection, but kept a few pieces that I didn't think were worth all that much money or had sentimental value. I kept this quarter because I thought the hassle of imaging it, paying listing fees, and then shipping would not be worth any potential return. When I pulled my album a few years ago... this it what the coin looks like now and has seemed to stablize... The obverse appears to have more toning, but the reverse of the coin is also toned... although not to the same degree. So, I suppose it is possible. I just wish I had images of this piece when I bought it!
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
My thoughts exactly.
Maybe, but I was being generous in claiming the ratio is 2:1 or 3:1. If I look at what comes up at auction it’s maybe 8:1. Again, I’m happy to be proven wrong.
Maybe people don’t ever sell their reverse toners?
First off, Sulfur does not tarnish/tone coins. Sulfide gas does. I have put coins in Sulfur powder, and nothing happens. You have to break the Sulfur molecules into ions.
Secondly, I have submitted far more coins that I helped that have come back NT than AT.
And, I have had more coins come back as QT that we're NT than I want to remember. I know that they were NT because I opened the mint (not U.S.) packages.
@lkenefic said: "Good topic... considering recent threads on toning in general. Here is the 90% Washington Quarter from my type set. It's one of the original pieces I purchased when I first started my Dansco 7070 ~2004. I purchased it raw, blast white, and put it in my album where it has resided ever since... around 15 years or so..."
This is the kind of post that helps us learn what natural toning looks like. Unfortunately, if it catches on and others start posting toned coins that have happened over time, the "doctors" will post AT with a good "grandmother story" to go with it. LOL.