I would agree on these points. Man, thats twice in a month I have agreed with Greg.........Note: No more drugs while posting
No drugs for you, or no drugs for Greg.
One of the dealers at a local show had all his toned coins in NGC holders and all his white coins in PCGS holders. I asked him about it, and his response was like Greg's. The toned coins really stick out with the white insert surrounding them.
<< <i>So a coin worth $975 retail has a $10,000 premium for color. Now it has an additional $10,000 premium for NGC "insurance" that the color's real.
It's still the same coin it was a year ago and when the shuffling is over some poor "collector" will probably be stuck with an overpriced coin. >>
Give me a break! When was the last time you spent $20k on anything without researching it first. This dealer vs. the collector stuff is a bunch of bunk. I have as of yet to meet a dumb collector or a dumb dealer and I buy a bunch of coins every month. I have been played by both many times!
I'm not sure it's bunk but then I'm not sure if I agree with coyn's statement either. The bottom line here is that the coin now resides in an NGC holder. The point being that this somehow legitimizes the coin. This, IMO, doesn't mean a damn thing. The coin is the same as it was a year ago. It hasn't changed just because it is surrounded by a different piece of plastic.
As to whether it's "overpriced" is another matter entirely. I agree that if someone now decides it's worth $20k in an NGC holder when they wouldn't pay $10k when it was in an ANACS holder is somewhat questionable logic. BUT if someone decides they think the coin is worth $20K for whatever reason, regardless whether "I" think it is illogical, is entirely THEIR business. Why should they give a damn what "I" think. It is THEIR money, right? They should be able to spend whatever the hell they want. The price is what is agreeed between a "compentent" dealer and a "competent" collector. That's called the MARKET value.
<< <i>Why would ngc pay if the coin turned black? Ngs's guarantee dosen't cover enviromental damage to a coin from improper storage.
Improper storage? No, they wouldn't pay. However, if the toning weren't stable and turned they would pay.
NGC/PCGS will pay to make the buyer whole again. That amount would be something to determine when the time comes. The grading services aren't stupid. They aren't going to offer Greysheet bid on a monster toned coin that turned. That would kill their credibility. They aren't going to do that. >>
I decided to ask about this in the Q & A section just because I was curious.
<< <i> What a great story, no Greg he didn't buy the holder, he paid for the grade and he owned up to his promise, good for him.
IrishMike, it's the SAME grade. The coin didn't change grades, it just changed slabs and added $10,000 to the price tag.
Don't get me wrong, in this case I agree that then NGC slab gives the coin MUCH more value due to their money backed guarantee. However, isn't this is a little of buying the slab and not the coin? >>
..........................so let me get this straight.....for sale @12,000 someone buys it, crosses it to ngc, they up it a grade, and the price goes up 10,000 dollars , and someone payed the extra 10,000. to the seller, hey, way to go, easy money. you see there are people who buy numbers.
I am happy that someone made a chunk of change honestly re this coin. I did not see it, nor do I collect Commems, so I don't have a bone to pick with anyone in this matter.
However, as I understand it, the coin was submitted to NGC at least once before (I don't know how many times this was done) and did not cross. The new buyer bought it and had no downside risk in so doing (Adrian, who sold it to him offered to buy it back at the same price). The new buyer did some research and convinced NGC that they were wrong in not crossing the coin. NGC holders the coin & the new dealer makes a nice profit.
NGC's holdering of this coin provides an expensive insurance policy, hence its increase in market value. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I think the whole point of this discussion is to illustrate once again how arbitrary the grading services can be, and that such arbitrariness can translate into thousands of dollars made or lost.
Why didn't NGC cross the coin the first time? It's the same coin that was submitted earlier. PCGS did the same thing re some coins from a collection going back to the 1860s, when the powers that be explained to them that given the facts and circumstances surrounding these coins, there's no way they could have been tampered with (forgive my grammar).
Bryan, I congratulate you on your success. However, as much as I truly enjoy collecting coins, when it comes to making money, I'll stick to my accounting practice, thank you.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I just happen to think that this is a classic story of what goes on in the coin business. I also thought it was interesting on how the whole thing played out.
Btw according to D.H. the pcgs guarantee does not cover premiums paid for monster toned coins. So if you find your prized coin has turned black in 5 years or is found to be at'd don't be suprised when all you are offered is the fair market price for a white coin at least with pcgs.
That is a beautiful coin. However, I still do not understand the current market situation. Did this coin gain all its value while still remaining the same coin? Did the name on the plastic holder change its value that much? I think I need to go to bed.
"Drinking has ruined my life-- I'm 31 years old!" (just kidding)
It also shows that some people have more access to NGC than others. The average guy may not have gotten this done even if they had all the information to back it up. This is what I really call a "power seller." Same thing happened to me once where I could not get a 65 grade on a rare date seated coin. A leading dealer buys the coin raw out of a Stacks auction I consigned it to and I got the extra 20% premium I was hoping for. He also got a 64 grade on his initial submission. But rather than go through the normal process again he just petitioned the grading service and complained about it. They gave him the 65 grade and he subsequently sold the coin for twice what he paid a few weeks later. Knowledge helps but access by being an insider doesn't hurt either.
Give me a break! When was the last time you spent $20k on anything without researching it first. This dealer vs. the collector stuff is a bunch of bunk. I have as of yet to meet a dumb collector or a dumb dealer and I buy a bunch of coins every month. I have been played by both many times!
I couldn't disagree more. Maybe you never met a dumb collector/dealer but we have all made some pretty dumb mistakes buying and selling and if you don't admit it your in denial. More important is your researching comment. There is absolutely no research (history) for this type of price on a coin like this. I played the dealer before and it called picking a number. You guys picked a number and it was accepted by the buyer. You just made history you did not research anything.
Comments
GSAGUY
No drugs for you, or no drugs for Greg.
One of the dealers at a local show had all his toned coins in NGC holders and all his white coins in PCGS holders. I asked him about it, and his response was like Greg's. The toned coins really stick out with the white insert surrounding them.
It's still the same coin it was a year ago and when the shuffling is over some poor "collector" will probably be stuck with an overpriced coin.
<< <i>So a coin worth $975 retail has a $10,000 premium for color. Now it has an additional $10,000 premium for NGC "insurance" that the color's real.
It's still the same coin it was a year ago and when the shuffling is over some poor "collector" will probably be stuck with an overpriced coin. >>
Give me a break! When was the last time you spent $20k on anything without researching it first. This dealer vs. the collector stuff is a bunch of bunk. I have as of yet to meet a dumb collector or a dumb dealer and I buy a bunch of coins every month. I have been played by both many times!
TBT
As to whether it's "overpriced" is another matter entirely. I agree that if someone now decides it's worth $20k in an NGC holder when they wouldn't pay $10k when it was in an ANACS holder is somewhat questionable logic. BUT if someone decides they think the coin is worth $20K for whatever reason, regardless whether "I" think it is illogical, is entirely THEIR business. Why should they give a damn what "I" think. It is THEIR money, right? They should be able to spend whatever the hell they want. The price is what is agreeed between a "compentent" dealer and a "competent" collector. That's called the MARKET value.
jom
<< <i>Why would ngc pay if the coin turned black? Ngs's guarantee dosen't cover enviromental damage to a coin from improper storage.
Improper storage? No, they wouldn't pay. However, if the toning weren't stable and turned they would pay.
NGC/PCGS will pay to make the buyer whole again. That amount would be something to determine when the time comes. The grading services aren't stupid. They aren't going to offer Greysheet bid on a monster toned coin that turned. That would kill their credibility. They aren't going to do that. >>
I decided to ask about this in the Q & A section just because I was curious.
Monster toned coins and the pcgs grade guarantee.
<< <i> What a great story, no Greg he didn't buy the holder, he paid for the grade and he owned up to his promise, good for him.
IrishMike, it's the SAME grade. The coin didn't change grades, it just changed slabs and added $10,000 to the price tag.
Don't get me wrong, in this case I agree that then NGC slab gives the coin MUCH more value due to their money backed guarantee. However, isn't this is a little of buying the slab and not the coin? >>
..........................so let me get this straight.....for sale @12,000 someone buys it, crosses it to ngc, they up it a grade, and the price goes up 10,000 dollars , and someone payed the extra 10,000. to the seller, hey, way to go, easy money. you see there are people who buy numbers.
<< <i>Ron, actually the grade remained the same. just the initials ANACS changed to NGC. >>
........thanks zenny, i do like the white holders they use, i think it shows the coins better, even the color.
However, as I understand it, the coin was submitted to NGC at least once before (I don't know how many times this was done) and did not cross. The new buyer bought it and had no downside risk in so doing (Adrian, who sold it to him offered to buy it back at the same price). The new buyer did some research and convinced NGC that they were wrong in not crossing the coin. NGC holders the coin & the new dealer makes a nice profit.
NGC's holdering of this coin provides an expensive insurance policy, hence its increase in market value. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I think the whole point of this discussion is to illustrate once again how arbitrary the grading services can be, and that such arbitrariness can translate into thousands of dollars made or lost.
Why didn't NGC cross the coin the first time? It's the same coin that was submitted earlier. PCGS did the same thing re some coins from a collection going back to the 1860s, when the powers that be explained to them that given the facts and circumstances surrounding these coins, there's no way they could have been tampered with (forgive my grammar).
Bryan, I congratulate you on your success. However, as much as I truly enjoy collecting coins, when it comes to making money, I'll stick to my accounting practice, thank you.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Bryan
Btw according to D.H. the pcgs guarantee does not cover premiums paid for monster toned coins. So if you find your prized coin has turned black in 5 years or is found to be at'd don't be suprised when all you are offered is the fair market price for a white coin at least with pcgs.
a "power seller." Same thing happened to me once where I could not get a 65 grade on a rare date seated coin. A leading dealer buys the coin raw out of a Stacks auction I consigned it to and I got the extra 20% premium I was hoping for. He also got a 64 grade on his initial submission. But rather than go through the normal process again he just petitioned the grading service and complained about it. They gave him the 65 grade and he subsequently sold the coin for twice what he paid a few weeks later. Knowledge helps but access by being an insider doesn't hurt either.
roadrunner
I couldn't disagree more.
Maybe you never met a dumb collector/dealer but we have all made some pretty dumb mistakes buying and selling and if you don't admit it your in denial. More important is your researching comment. There is absolutely no research (history) for this type of price on a coin like this. I played the dealer before and it called picking a number. You guys picked a number and it was accepted by the buyer. You just made history you did not research anything.