1890 S-21 Indian cent - A new type of variety, but what is it?

EagleEye · February 23, 2019 12:31PM

I am calling it "Distorted outlines".

Your thoughts?

DIMEMAN · February 23, 2019 12:42PM

I have no idea, but wanted to say that it is neat coin!

golden · February 23, 2019 12:46PM

Neat.

tincup · February 23, 2019 1:53PM

?Perhaps a working hub was not properly hardened before being pressed into a working die blank... resulting in a 'spreading' of the features, and parts of the working hub spalling or flaring outwards. The worker probably caught it... then removed the damaged working hub... but kept the partially imprinted working die which would have the widened and uneven features. Another working hub was then used to finish the job, that was properly hardened. Just a guess on my part...

tincup · February 23, 2019 1:56PM

Forgot to mention... nice coin!

EagleEye · February 23, 2019 2:13PM

If it is a doubled die, then would it be a new class of doubling?

scubafuel · February 23, 2019 2:25PM

I like the die wear theory, and @tincup’s take is interesting.
I doubt it will turn out to be a new type of doubling.

cmerlo1 · February 23, 2019 2:49PM

Reminds me of this:

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compute.amazonaws.com/wiki/1883-O_VAM-1C1

RogerB · February 23, 2019 4:14PM

From the photos it appears to be extreme die shrinkage and distortion of the radius created during heating-cooling cycles when the die was pressed from the annual hub.

Someone missed it during inspection.

davewesen · February 23, 2019 4:52PM

if it was a nickel, I would say late die state with die erosion

dcarr · February 23, 2019 4:52PM

Die erosion.
As such, I would expect that this is only seen on the late state of this die.

jabba · February 23, 2019 5:12PM

What’s up with the rims does that seem strange to anyone?

JRocco · February 23, 2019 6:05PM

I can't see that as a doubled die. Just can't understand how it could be one.
Die erosion is possible. As to the reason Roger put forth , sure sounds plausible.
Very nice coin.

Insider2 · February 23, 2019 6:24PM

Someone may have answered above...this characteristic is eventually seen on most coin types. Not scarce at all. I saw 2 barber quarters, a Morgan dollar, and at least four Large cents like this last week! I always considered it a case of worn dies. This discussion will be interesting. Next week I'll start posting images of the coins like this I see. It may be helpful.

bolivarshagnasty · February 23, 2019 7:57PM

@dcarr said:
Die erosion.
As such, I would expect that this is only seen on the late state of this die.

Would this die erosion also be responsible for the cuds at the rim?

DMWJR · February 23, 2019 8:39PM

Rick, I know you know more than 99% of us regarding these things and have seen thousands of coins from deteriorated dies, so what is it that leads you against die wear or erosion? Is it the raised edge around the lettering/portrait? I'm having a little difficulty envisioning what the die would look like that would produce a raised rim around the lettering like that except maybe the dies just collapsing flat from improper hardening. It does remind me of something Wexler or Weinberg or some other error/variety expert wrote, but I can't lay my hands on it.

ms70 · February 23, 2019 8:59PM

My guess would be the dies were set too close or the planchet too thick, and the effect was allowed on one side but not the other?

DMWJR · February 23, 2019 10:55PM

Abrasion Doubling
Part X. Wastebasket/Composite Categories:
Doubling: Abrasion Doubling (debunked)

http://www.error-ref.com/abrasion-doubling/

CaptHenway · February 24, 2019 8:46AM

I am in the die erosion camp, with a side order of probable improper hardening of the working die.

How common is that repunched date variety? If common then the die got a lot of use, which would indicate die erosion. If rare then the die slumped down very early, which would indicate improper (or no?) hardening.

EagleEye · February 24, 2019 9:19AM

@DMWJR said:
Rick, I know you know more than 99% of us regarding these things and have seen thousands of coins from deteriorated dies, so what is it that leads you against die wear or erosion? Is it the raised edge around the lettering/portrait? I'm having a little difficulty envisioning what the die would look like that would produce a raised rim around the lettering like that except maybe the dies just collapsing flat from improper hardening. It does remind me of something Wexler or Weinberg or some other error/variety expert wrote, but I can't lay my hands on it.

The problem I see with die erosion alone is that there is none by the date. I wrote this concern in the text of the book entry, which at this point is only a draft.

EagleEye · February 24, 2019 9:29AM

How about this:
Step 1: The die was hubbed and while it was still soft it was heavilly polished (kind of like whizzing) creating the rough outlines on the details. There is no date yet.
Step 2: The die is now distorted and rehubbed. This makes the details sharper but leaves the distorted outlines.
Step 3 The date is punched in. It is punched twice, the first date being nearly effaced by the second. This causes the repunched date.
Step 4: The die is hardened and put into use.

DMWJR · February 24, 2019 1:30PM

I could definitely see heating/cooling treatments before and after the addition of the mint mark creating the discrepancy. Alternatively, does die deterioration have to affect the entire coin evenly?

I noticed this on a recent high grade flying eagle. Just no raised outlines like the ones on your coins. Compare the area from 10:00 - 12:00 (deterioration) with the area from 3:00 to 7:00 (Longacre doubling only)

CaptHenway · February 24, 2019 6:06PM

@EagleEye said:

@DMWJR said:
Rick, I know you know more than 99% of us regarding these things and have seen thousands of coins from deteriorated dies, so what is it that leads you against die wear or erosion? Is it the raised edge around the lettering/portrait? I'm having a little difficulty envisioning what the die would look like that would produce a raised rim around the lettering like that except maybe the dies just collapsing flat from improper hardening. It does remind me of something Wexler or Weinberg or some other error/variety expert wrote, but I can't lay my hands on it.

The problem I see with die erosion alone is that there is none by the date. I wrote this concern in the text of the book entry, which at this point is only a draft.

Does punching a date into a die tend to work harden that area?

ricko · February 25, 2019 8:22AM

Very interesting coin and thread. @EagleEye....Thank you for the detailed pictures and discussion. Cheers, RickO

EagleEye · February 25, 2019 8:34AM

Is it a worn die or an abraded die?

Does the relative sharpness of the letters and portrait with respect to the fields areas surrounding them show a rehubbing of a worn die or is it consistent with either a worn die or an abraded die?

Do other worn dies during the date-punched era (pre-1909) show local hardness (no die wear) by the date?

EagleEye · February 25, 2019 8:37AM

If you notice by the date there are a few light die polishing lines. One is to the left of the 1 and another goes through the upper-right corner of the 8.

CaptHenway · February 25, 2019 8:54AM

Random idle hypothesizing.....

We know that back then die blanks were slightly conical, and that during the hubbing process the center of the design formed first. The partially hubbed die was annealed to soften it and then hubbed again. Repeat until finished.

What if at some stage during this series of hubbings the annealing process was done improperly or skipped entirely? The central design was already there so it was not affected. The legend and denticles COULD be affected. The date came later, so it was not affected.

I don't know enough about the annealing process to know if improper annealing could affect a die like this die was affected, but that could (theoretically) explain why only the legend and the rim are affected.

TD

EagleEye · February 25, 2019 8:03PM

Thanks for your input. There are many other coins of other denominations like this. The 1883-O VAM-1C1 is called a buffed reverse. This is a well thought out attribution.

davewesen · February 26, 2019 3:50AM

what is Longacre doubling and are there an similarities seen with the example here?

1890 S-21 Indian cent - A new type of variety, but what is it?

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