A Big Reveal at the PCGS Luncheon
dbldie55
Posts: 7,739 ✭✭✭✭✭
This was the subject of an email from last month. Did anyone attend that can provide details?
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
0
Comments
Reworking “improving” many aspects of their online presence including the Set Registry and Coinfacts. HBoyd said the “other images” selection will not be an option in the revamped Coinfacts. No changes in the grading room and no submission increase. Nothing monumental.
The big reveal was that now you can't see all the beautiful pictures of the coins in coinfacts?? Well that's a crummy reveal.
Isn't there some big reveal coming with the Set Registry on the 14th? Whatever it is Im sure it will only benefit the big hitters. They don't seems to care about us lowlife's down the list.
That’s not a fair statement!
Tell me how anyone below the top ten in any series get any recognition in the Set Registry. Me included.
Heather said that the diminished access to coin pictures on CoinFacts had to do with “privacy” issues, and was instituted by collector demand.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
I don’t like change
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
This would be better solved by providing submitters with an option to "Keep photos private." (and charge a fee for it, too).
Or perhaps: "Make previous photos of this coin private."
Part of PCGS's mission should be to promote research.
Research helps promote interest in coins, which is a positive thing for the hobby and for their business.
For example, this is why PCGS has granted permission for researchers (like myself) to use their photos (properly credited) in publications.
Perhaps we (PCGS Forum users) are partly to blame, as we have used the open photos list to illustrate how coins were repeatedly submitted until they got a higher grade.
I made a post to a thread started by Stuart on an Indian Cent,
where I showed it had been resubmitted about 10 times (at least once a month), until it got the higher grade.
(The first time it was resubmitted, the grade went down).
Note: that thread has since been censored (removed) - I could not find it just now when I searched my past comments.
However, this is nothing that PCGS should feel the need to hide. It is the reality of what people do when there is a financial incentive, and when grading has an unavoidable random element.
The standards are consistent and never change.
I find that impossible to believe that more collectors wanted fewer photos than didn't.
I haven't seen one, not one, post saying this change of having fewer photos is a change for the good.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Yes, this is the catch 22 about being open with your process. You cannot successfully maintain that your subjective process is objective and consistent when your own objective data shows that it is subjective and inconsistent.
Stories, supported by objective data such as images, that coins are subjected to a grind to get a higher grade don't support the consistency theory either. Nor do objectively supported stories where one owner submits a coin, both raw and for Reconsideration, repeatedly with no change and then the coin is sold and quickly upgraded by the next owner.
In order to remedy this you first have to clean the data. You have to filter to get rid of the same coins with 8 different cert numbers that don't all have the same grade as an end result so that there is only one image with one grade of any coin in the database. Then you have to implement a process where by this problematic data is not reproduced in the future.
Taking images of all coins submitted (I think this has been mentioned as in the works) is one step. Applying their digital identification system related to the Gold Shield (where every coin is laser(?) scanned to create a unique signature) is a step likely to be applied to all coins over a certain value or grade level moving forward so that any future raw resubmissions will immediately be identified as having already been submitted and graded and these facts will be known while the coin is in process. You are much less likely to change the grade more than a plus with this data, but if you do, you know what images to delete or replace from your database. After a while your data has a much more objective appearance.
What would be the economic vs. the educational aspect of doing this? I haven't seen people complain on this forum about having their coins' images public for open view. So this is a private, behind the scenes pattern of complaints from people who would be afraid to expose their will to the light of day, would there be any legal rights of coin owners to demand their images be kept private? NGC also did this a few years ago where you couldn't even get their substandard scanner images with a certification number unless you have other information on the coin. It seems that some interests really have a thin skin and are afraid of equitable sharing of knowledge.
The photos are the property of PCGS. The owners have the choice not to have their coins photographed.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I imagine the dealers had more to do with the CoinFacts change than the collectors. Let's face it - they submit a lot more than we do and have more sway.
Studying all the pics of various coins within a certain grade or range of grades was supremely valuable.
I was always amazed at the various looks of like graded coins.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
So then why do we pay for it? They should pay us for using the image of our coins.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
How would showing those photos be a detriment to dealers? I would think those photos would be a plus for their bottom line.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I could see an opt out plan; especially on the really high end coins. It is just sad that we will now have trouble accessing the treasure chest of images and information some of us relied on for educational purposes.
The only people I can conceive of having an issue with an image of their coin being displayed on CoinFacts, are the ones that crack and resubmit over and over and are foolish enough to request an image to be taken each and every time. If I was one of these crack out artists, I would not have any submission imaged until I made the grade I had hoped for. I would then send the final grade I wanted in for a re-holder and an image. I would also send along all of the cracked out certs to get the populations corrected.
So yet again, here is an instance where the few have ruined a good thing for the majority. I for one enjoyed looking through all of the images listed in CoinFacts. I really hope all of us who are complaining now, will get them listed again. I do agree that it would be nice to get the duplicates cleaned up and while doing so, deactivate the certificates associated with those images.
One reason we are seeing so many duplicate image is that the Gold Shield requires an image, so crack outs have no choice but to be photographed if they are valued over $3000. This is new with gold shield so it is causing a problem.
I’ve also seen two of the top three be the same coin before....
Having users test proposed changes; live focus groups; clear goals are all time-honored means to success....and so many companies ignore them. Etc.....
I suspect those who engage in repeated crackout attempts are the reason for the lack of CoinFacts images. Let's face it, if you need a dozen shots to upgrade a coin from $2,000 to $20,000 and the first 11-shots are on CoinFacts at a lower grade then the coin might not be so "valuable" upon resale at its newer, higher grade.
In other words, high volume, high tier submitters complained loudly enough and long enough to the right people to have the system skewed in their financial favor.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
This is really sad. It seems that PCGS failed to realize that the coin photos where an extremely important feature.
Without the photos, Coinfacts is pretty boring and not very useful.
Don't prior certifications (with images) get deleted if the certification tabs are sent back in for population purposes, etc.?
You would hope the least PCGS could do would be weed out the true duplicates from the population reports.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
This is a terrible move on PCGS’ part. I can’t count the number of times I’ve scrolled through all the images
This is horrible. Yes may help the crack out guys but will definitely not help collectors
Bingo!
And this is why this thread will go poof too...
I don't envy PCGS in their efforts to manage this business. Having acknowledged the challenges, I have to admit that the more I think about the choice they made, and the way they made the change, the worse it sits with me. I was already taking this year off from adding any coins to my collection and I have been selling groups of coins off and on for a few months to reduce its size, but only today did I ask myself if I still trusted PCGS.
I have not read the back of the submission form, but I assume the submission form signs away your privacy regarding images. That came up in conversation today about the coinfacts change.
Or more accurately, a Big Conceal.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Which collector?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Collectors of cracked slabs maybe?
Without photos what good is the registry ?
wasn't there, but this sounds like a step in a "different" direction...
if this is the case, PCGS should state it as such. Truth is better than "collector demand"
I wonder what the not-so-recent formerly-employed executives are thinking about this "change" to CoinFacts?
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
I know one very well known and high end collector here that doesn't want photos of his coins published. Does "collector demand" mean one collector
I think the lack of photos in PCGS Coin Facts really diminishes the importance of the site, by about 95% for me.
I'm sitting on a number of ATS and raw pieces I want to send to PCGS for TrueViews but a big value for me was that the images would be listed in Coin Facts as a reference for the community. If that's not there, other photography services become more compelling.
I hope that PCGS reconsiders this change. Making a couple of high-end submitters happy by removing a valuable resource and irritating their base seems counter-intuitive.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
I wonder if limiting photos Coin Facts will result in more crack out submissions?
I don't quite understand why PCGS would want to hide pictures. Very weird.
Reading all these posts I'm getting a clear picture of what you need to continue your need to know.
If pictures you need, of your coins, with a vast amount of filters, micro style only . just find me and I will help any way I can .
no charge, no bosses, no office politics. every day 11pm - 3 am
should read not getting
I once watched one go from a 64 to 67.
There are already public records of slabbed coins in successive auctions going from grades like MS-64 to MS-67 - it's no secret, right?
Note: such large changes in grade are unusual, so they do not constitute average grade inflation, but they do happen sometimes.
I believe many of the upgrades in the higher grades are due to the way that attractive toning has yielded higher auction prices in recent years.
PCGS wants grades to track actual values, so it is natural for their grading to adapt if there has been a shift in what is valued at auction.
I don't see any value in their trying to hide such grade changes in the graded photos they make available to the public.
[And it is speculative to say that this is the main reason it was changed.]
P.S. See @BrettPCGS's initial response in this thread:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1012133/coinfacts-challenge
I always tried to do that on coins that mattered. If resubmitters/crackers aren't sending in the labels for deletion, they have no defense on claiming that multiple grades on the same coins are messing with their bottom line.
If PCGS was really serious about combating the counterfeiting menace, they should bring back all of the photos. One of the best ways to spot counterfeits is to compare the item in question with the real thing. This change is very disappointing, and if PCGS is really serious about listening to thei customers, they should reverse this decision.