Grease Spot On $20 Liberty?????

winesteven · December 30, 2018 10:13AM

The attached coin is graded MS65, and is gorgeous, with so many fewer marks on Liberty’s cheek and neck than most other 65’s. However, there’s a short thin dark ”line” by “Pluribus” on the reverse. Is this mint made grease? It doesn't look anything like copper spots, which are typically somewhat red or lighter in color, and also have more "volume", as opposed to a black thin line. Carbon spots tend not to look like this either. Whatever it is, does it detract from the market value, or is it considered like other mint made "issues", like die cracks, etc.? If it does detract from value, is this something that you think PCGS Restoration can successfully remove?

Thanks, and Happy New Year!

Steve Feiertag

ifthevamzarockin · December 30, 2018 12:43PM

Beautiful coin. The small spot is not too distracting, I would leave it alone.

PerryHall · December 30, 2018 1:04PM

How did you determine that mark is a grease spot? One of the major grading services can probably remove that mark. Not sure if it would increase that coin's value but it would sure improve its appearance.

winesteven · December 30, 2018 1:12PM

I believe that if the appearance is improved, that would allow the coin to sell for "Fair" value, as opposed to being reduced in value due to the "distraction". Thanks. I think I'll send it in to PCGS for Restoration. Worst case, if they don't accept it for Restoration, the cost is only $10 plus round trip shipping.

PerryHall · December 30, 2018 1:14PM

It's well worth it. Let us know what happens and best of luck.

RogerB · December 30, 2018 1:29PM

Squished gnat....

ricko · December 31, 2018 10:28AM

It is certainly worth a try...might also ask for reconsideration at the same time...Good luck and let us know what happens... Cheers, RickO

FredWeinberg · December 31, 2018 10:58AM

Could also be improper metal mixture of the original
Planchet strip

winesteven · January 29, 2019 8:55PM

Update - I submitted the coin to PCGS Restoration, and they accepted it. The "grease spot" is very slightly thinner and lighter than before, although comparison of the original photo above and the new one posted now shows a little less difference than in hand. Regardless, I'm a bit disappointed they couldn't make it "disappear', but it is what it is. The coin had a CAC, and since I have the paper trail showing this is the same coin, and the grade remains unchanged, it's on its way back to CAC to get the sticker reapplied. As noted in the original post above, Liberty's cheek, neck and the fields show so fewer marks than most 66's.

winesteven · January 29, 2019 9:01PM

While in my opinion it looks like a 66, the grade is MS65.

mannie gray · January 29, 2019 9:04PM

@winesteven said:
While in my opinion it looks like a 66, the grade is MS65.

Likely because of the streak.
It's a beautiful coin.

Stella · January 29, 2019 9:08PM

An attractive, lustrous coin either way.

winesteven · January 29, 2019 9:12PM

I agree - “net” grade.

JasonGaming · January 29, 2019 9:36PM

Slightly less distracting now, so I’d say it’s a win. 👍

Walkerfan · January 30, 2019 4:57PM

The streak is lightened up a little bit but I don't see a whole lot of difference in the before and after photos.

I do like the coin, though.

291fifth · January 30, 2019 5:58PM

Whatever it was that substance probably reacted with the copper content of the coin over the past 115 years. Be happy they didn't get any more aggressive in trying to remove it because it is probably there to stay. You now have to decide if the mark distract YOU. If it does you should probably sell the coin and start looking for a replacement.

Onastone · January 30, 2019 6:08PM

I was thinking that if the black smudge was removed completely, it might have left a whiter mark, which probably would have been more distracting and perhaps worse. Looks like they did a good cleanup job, it's a beautiful coin!!!!

Broadstruck · January 30, 2019 6:15PM

@FredWeinberg said:
Could also be improper metal mixture of the original
Planchet strip

Yep as that's what the black slag mark on the reverse looks like.

Leave it alone and love it as is or if you want a more perfect example find a MS67.

JimTyler · January 30, 2019 6:21PM

If the mark (grease or improper mix) was on Liberty's nose it would bother me. I have no problem with this coin.

tommy44 · January 30, 2019 6:23PM

I probably wouldn't have sent it in, especially since it had a CAC sticker. Apparently it didn't bother the CAC folks. I must admit it does look a little better.

As an aside, I thought that if PCGS removed the coin from the old slab and put it in a new one you kept the same cert# with the new photo. Am I wrong thinking this or it that just for a "reholder"?

Walkerfan · January 30, 2019 6:39PM

@tommy44 said:
As an aside, I thought that if PCGS removed the coin from the old slab and put it in a new one you kept the same cert# with the new photo. Am I wrong thinking this or it that just for a "reholder"?

After conservation, the coin gets re-graded, hence the new cert number.

Broadstruck · January 30, 2019 7:01PM

Better question is who is even doing their conservation work now with HRH gone?

winesteven · January 30, 2019 10:08PM

With “Reconsideration”, the Cert Number stays the same no matter how high the grade improves (I once had Seated Dollar go from AU55 to MS61). If the only increase is a “+”, then for just $3, CAC will reapply the sticker, as CAC does not recognize + grades as being different than the whole number. In theory, if the grade increase is to the next higher number, even from a “+”, then it’s not automatic, and the cost is $14.50. With “Restoration”, PCGS will always assign a new cert number, even as in this case with the grade remaining the same. While I send CAC $14.50 for these, as long as you include the paperwork which shows the old cert number on your submission form, and the PCGS printout showing the order number and submission number with the new cert number, CAC will automatically reapply the sticker if the new grade is not with a higher number. This coin is now back at CAC getting the sticker reapplied, as the grade remained unchanged at MS65.

fc · January 30, 2019 11:31PM

Since the mark is on the reverse I consider it a trivial matter. PCGS improved it and the coin is awesome. But the coin was awesome before as well. If that little mark saved big bucks when buying I would consider that a plus!

tommy44 · January 31, 2019 6:34AM

@Walkerfan said:

@tommy44 said:
As an aside, I thought that if PCGS removed the coin from the old slab and put it in a new one you kept the same cert# with the new photo. Am I wrong thinking this or it that just for a "reholder"?

After conservation, the coin gets re-graded, hence the new cert number.

Thanks for clearing that up. Next question, since PCGS cracked the coin out of the old holder do they remove the old cert# from the population report?

winesteven · January 31, 2019 6:47AM

I can't say for sure, but I'd be shocked if they didn't, since they have the information. I also believe they might still have the program where they offered collectors 25 cents for each cert returned from cracked out coins for this very purpose - to adjust the pop report.

1630Boston · January 31, 2019 7:24AM

Pretty piece of gold

Cougar1978 · January 31, 2019 7:27AM

yuck, definitely a dog. With the streak a c coin. U might get melt for it. Nothing I would want.

Send it in for conservation.

1630Boston · January 31, 2019 7:37AM

@Cougar1978 said:

Send it in for conservation.

@winesteven said:
Update - I submitted the coin to PCGS Restoration, and they accepted it.

I still like it for what it is

logger7 · January 31, 2019 8:16AM

Mark is about half as it was, improvement.

johnny9434 · January 31, 2019 8:22AM

that sure is a beautiful coin. that mark is an improvement like it was said.

Broadstruck · January 31, 2019 8:29AM

Looks like they spot treated it as the area right of streak is now much brighter and far less uniform.

Sorry to say, but I hope CAC doesn't re-sticker this without another look as you can tell that area of the streak was chemically enhanced.

Coin had original undisturbed surfaces before and the mark like sleeping dogs was better off left to lie.

winesteven · January 31, 2019 11:34AM

@Broadstruck, it’s just the lighting in the photo. If you look at the original in the very top photo, you’ll see a very large area on the left that is “lighter”. That larger area is now darker, Other than a medium area around the line. In hand, there was no difference.

Walkerfan · January 31, 2019 6:01PM

@tommy44 said:

@Walkerfan said:

@tommy44 said:
As an aside, I thought that if PCGS removed the coin from the old slab and put it in a new one you kept the same cert# with the new photo. Am I wrong thinking this or it that just for a "reholder"?

After conservation, the coin gets re-graded, hence the new cert number.

Thanks for clearing that up. Next question, since PCGS cracked the coin out of the old holder do they remove the old cert# from the population report?

Yes.

winesteven · February 5, 2019 2:46PM

Just came back from CAC, and they did reapply the sticker, as expected.

Grease Spot On $20 Liberty?????

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