Quaker Puffed Rice is not the only thing shot from cannon ---

RogerB · December 28, 2018 8:14PM

The Navy Ordnance Bureau also shot silver discs in 1872. Anyone have an idea why the needed pure silver discs that cost more than $8.75 each from the Philadelphia Mint?

jedm · December 28, 2018 8:19PM

Wow! That handwriting is superb.

amwldcoin · December 28, 2018 8:27PM

I used to love Puffa Puffa Rice cereal when I was a kid!

TommyType · December 28, 2018 8:50PM

My reading of the letter seems to indicate they didn't fire the silver disks OUT of the cannon, but instead "subjected (them) to pressure" within the cannon....and returned them to the mint.

Not knowing the configuration of these cannons, I can only guess that the disks were behind the charge, and not in front of it.

What would the purpose be? One can only guess. But my guess is that it may have been at the request of the Mint? Testing alternate "striking" methods?

Namvet69 · December 29, 2018 4:34AM

Wonder if the disks were sandwiched between dies that imprinted on the disks under pressure? 15" cannon bore is big enough. Peace Roy

RogerB · December 29, 2018 12:25PM

The silver discs were order by the Bureau if Ordnance from the Mint. There is no suggestion of the mint testing anything - and certainly not using an explosive charge to strike medals or coins. (They occasionally tested hydraulic presses - but these were from railroad equipment suppliers and too powerful and dangerous for Mint use.)

None of the Ordnance letters except this one indicate anything about how the discs were used or why pure silver was necessary -- or why Ordnance didn't order a larger supply and thus reduce their unit cost.

Smudge · December 29, 2018 1:51PM

The disks would have been rather large at that price. Any idea why this was necessary or what they were trying to prove or disprove?

RogerB · December 29, 2018 5:22PM

Nope.

291fifth · December 29, 2018 5:56PM

Wasn't it Gabby Hayes that shot the Quaker Oats from the cannon? I remember watching that on TV in the very early 1950's.

sparky64 · December 29, 2018 8:44PM

Any idea on the disk dimensions?
I see the cannon referenced is 15".
You also say the cost was $8.75+ per disk.
Is that about 9 ounces of silver?

Akbeez · December 29, 2018 9:18PM

Is this a TRUE MYSTERY? C'mon Roger, what's the punchline?

What's the Quaker Oats ref too?? Hmm...

291fifth · December 30, 2018 1:07AM

The "Quaker Oats" should actually be Quaker Puffed Rice. I stand corrected. In the very early 1950's (1950-51 if I am correct) Quaker sponsored a TV show that ran old western movies and was hosted by (I believe) Gabby Hayes. At the end of each show Gabby would have a cannon and load it with Quaker Puffed Rice. Keep in mind I could be wrong about this since I am remembering it from a time I was very, very young.

ricko · December 30, 2018 6:18AM

This is indeed an interesting 'mystery'....I will see if any gun history people know why/what they were used for.... Cheers, RickO

RogerB · December 30, 2018 8:31AM

The discs weighed 6.01 oz. according to one letter. I'm searching for the other dimensions. The Coiner discusses machining and other unusual steps.

fiftysevener · December 30, 2018 9:00AM

Chamber pressures would have been relatively high but not enough to move metal. Common chamber pressures for black powder loads are measured in lead units of pressure which correspond closely to around 10,000 p.s.I. Modern metallic cartridge pressures are measured in copper units of pressure which are much higher and as much as 60,000 copper units of pressure or approximately 60,000 p.s.I. These pressures are measured using copper crushers rather than maximum registering gauges of some other mechanical type. This is still not enough to move silver metal but certainly sufficient to propel these discs down the barrel if desired.

CaptHenway · December 30, 2018 9:08AM

@RogerB said:
The discs weighed 6.01 oz. according to one letter. I'm searching for the other dimensions. The Coiner discusses machining and other unusual steps.

The Fifth Dimension:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjxSCAalsBE

(skip the ad)

PerryHall · December 30, 2018 9:24AM

I'm guessing that as a government agency they were trying to economize by not using gold discs.

RogerB · December 30, 2018 9:26AM

Here are a few more clues uncovered about the Ordnance Bureau silver discs. The “model” mentioned has not been identified.

January 18, 1872 – “To enable the Bureau of Ordnance of this Department [Navy] to perfect certain experiments now being made with gunpowder.” Also, “not less than 99-95/100” and “as per model now in the Melting and Refining Department…”

February 23, 1872 – Returns used discs “…which have been subjected to pressures with 100 lbs charges in the base of a XV-in Navy cannon; the result of that experiment being so satisfactory that it has been requested that a further and more extended order may be given you…”

CaptHenway · December 30, 2018 9:46AM

I suppose that if you put the powder in first and then a silver disc and then a heavy shot, the disc would help keep the exploding gasses from escaping around the shot as it went down the barrel and thereby increase the range of the shot. The silver, being soft, would not jam in the barrel as the edge of it would just scrape away as needed.

The silver disk would certainly be "compressed" by this, as well as bent and distorted. The test shots must have been conducted on land so that the silver discs could be recovered.

sparky64 · December 30, 2018 11:28AM

@CaptHenway said:
I suppose that if you put the powder in first and then a silver disc and then a heavy shot, the disc would help keep the exploding gasses from escaping around the shot as it went down the barrel and thereby increase the range of the shot. The silver, being soft, would not jam in the barrel as the edge of it would just scrape away as needed.

The silver disk would certainly be "compressed" by this, as well as bent and distorted. The test shots must have been conducted on land so that the silver discs could be recovered.

I was also going in this direction, sort of.

Everyone knows the order for muzzle loading is powder, patch and ball.
The patch is usually some type of linen, paper or rope in a cannon.

I was thinking that the silver disks could have been used as the patch for evaluating various powder configurations.
But given, the diameter and the weight of the silver, the disks would need to be super thin.

I shoot 50 cal flintlock and often retrieve and scrutinize the linen patches.
Powder fineness and amount will affect the look of the patch after discharge.

You can approach getting too "hot" of a powder load and the patch will show some burning or too much powder and the patch will look sooty, etc.

I was thinking that if the silver disks were used as the patch it may be easier to scientifically evaluate various powder configurations or even experimental breech designs.

Insider2 · December 30, 2018 6:57PM

What if the discs were put in first and then the cannonball was rolled down the barrel. It would deform the discs under the pressure of its weight. What would that be useful for if anything? I can see no reason to fire the cannon with the disc inside unless it was a form of grapeshot, something to condense the power, or something to fill the void between the ball and barrel causing additional pressure and therefore distance.

RogerB · December 30, 2018 7:43PM

So far, I've found nothing about the diameter/thickness of the silver discs. Used discs were returned for melting and were described as distorted. Maybe the "patch" use to evaluation configuration of the 100 lb charge is correct?

291fifth · December 30, 2018 7:50PM

This was a period of tremendous industrial growth and experimentation and advancement in weaponry. The modern machine gun would appear in the 1880's and odd weapons like pneumatic ship cannons would appear in the 1890's on the USS Vesuvius (and actually be used in the Spanish American War). These silver discs were probably part of some experiment that may be revealed in documents that are yet to be found.

CaptHenway · December 30, 2018 7:54PM

@RogerB said:
So far, I've found nothing about the diameter/thickness of the silver discs. Used discs were returned for melting and were described as distorted. Maybe the "patch" use to evaluation configuration of the 100 lb charge is correct?

Interesting idea. Perhaps the distortion of the silver plate froze an image of the wave front of the discharge.

TommyType · December 30, 2018 9:40PM

I haven't found a reference for U.S. specific naval guns (or cannons)….

But this Wikipedia page indicates that breech loaded guns started to be developed and used in the 1850's, and exploding shells in the 1820-30's. Depending on the "state of the art" in the US Navy, you may have to rethink the cannonball theories.

The US Navy may not have been as advanced at the time...I don't know. We weren't ALWAYS on the leading edge....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_artillery

TommyType · December 30, 2018 9:49PM

This is interesting, in that it makes reference to an "XV-inch shell gun".....the same wording used in the OP letter.

https://www.navalhistory.org/category/naval-guns

And here's another reference to two versions of the "XV-inch" gun, built between 1862 and 1872. They do appear to be muzzle loaded. If nothing else, it adds some "flavor" to the discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahlgren_gun

Insider2 · December 30, 2018 10:39PM

the original Monitor had the 11" guns and they were not allowed to use the full charge during the first ironclad battle in 1862. The guns were muzzle loaded.

CaptHenway · December 31, 2018 7:35AM

The answer is here on Pages 492 & 495:

https://books.google.com/books?id=X5K5FYstquwC&pg=PA492&lpg=PA492&dq=silver+disks+naval+ordnance&source=bl&ots=-IR64qklDN&sig=Fd8zDCevHg8i_9anhYZVjgRD9oI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjujNiXosjfAhWFna0KHSXGBMIQ6AEwCHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=silver disks naval ordnance&f=false

Namvet69 · December 31, 2018 9:29AM

Thanks CaptH. Made my morning. Peace Roy

sparky64 · December 31, 2018 10:04AM

Nice work @CaptHenway !
Makes perfect sense.

On to the next mystery....

RogerB · December 31, 2018 11:10AM

Excellent CaptHenway !
Great collaboration everyone! Just what was hoped for!

Now -- who is going to write the very interesting article on this connection between the Philadelphia Mint and Bureau of Ordnance? Guaranteed to be an award winner. Might also be enjoyed by Navy fans and the Naval Academy journal.

(I'll provide all the letters I can locate....)

CaptHenway · December 31, 2018 11:11AM

I'm still waiting for somebody to translate that manual into English...........

segoja · December 31, 2018 11:16AM

Sold a lot of Puffed Rice and Puffed Wheat early in my career with Quaker Oats.

Now selling lots of silver discs called American Eagles

fiftysevener · December 31, 2018 2:23PM

@CaptHenway said:
The answer is here on Pages 492 & 495:

https://books.google.com/books?id=X5K5FYstquwC&pg=PA492&lpg=PA492&dq=silver+disks+naval+ordnance&source=bl&ots=-IR64qklDN&sig=Fd8zDCevHg8i_9anhYZVjgRD9oI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjujNiXosjfAhWFna0KHSXGBMIQ6AEwCHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=silver disks naval ordnance&f=false

This is incredibly interesting to me as I spent a lot of time experimenting with 'peak pressure' and where this should happen in the barrel to reduce hard cast linotype bullet deformation and bore fouling. This could be changed to move peak pressure further down the barrel using slower burning powders. It wouldn't matter much in short barrel handguns but is relatively important when shooting cast bullets in rifle length barrels. Great work @CaptHenway !

CaptHenway · December 31, 2018 2:57PM

Thank you. I would appreciate it if you could put the manual into layman's terms.

RogerB · December 31, 2018 3:43PM

fiftysevener --- Maybe you could also write an article for publication? I offer whatever small help I can render.

ricko · January 1, 2019 7:59AM

Great find @CaptHenway .... and very interesting.... Cheers, RickO

Quaker Puffed Rice is not the only thing shot from cannon ---

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