eBay and Cleaned Coins
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Raybob15239
Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭
Is it just me, or are most of the Peace Dollars on eBay cleaned? Out of the last dozen or so Peace Dollars I purchased on eBay, I would have to venture that there were only 3 that were not cleaned. Some of them looked like they were cleaned with steel wool once you got them under the scope.
Successful B/S/T transactions: As Seller: PascoWA (June 2008); MsMorrisine (April 2009); ECHOES (July 2009) As Buyer: bfjohnson (July 2008); robkool (Dec 2010); itsnotjustme (Dec 2010) TwoSides2aCoin (Dec 2018) PrivateCoin Jan 2019
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It's not something I'd buy, but I'd say most significantly cleaned coins won't need any magnification to show off their hairlines...
Usually, yes, but on circulated coins it is a little harder to see in the photos. I am usually looking for clashed coins or those with significant cracks/breaks and when I find them, often it's a circ coin. I usually lowball my bids so I don't have much into it if it is cleaned, but if it is a significant break, like a 24P VAM 5A I recently picked up for $30, I don't mind the cleaning as much.
I've noticed a lot of dealers through their cleaned examples up on ebay....don't bother to mention it either. I get them and ALWAYS do a SNAD so I don't have to pay postage to get that crap back. I don't think I'm as bad as 7 out of ten but it's not good for sure.
bob
...where else can a seller list a steel-wool cleaned coin as BU and have repeat customers?...for some reason eBay rules that niche...as long as people are paying, cheats will be selling...3 for 12, that’s not a good run...I say buy PCGS slabbed already and that should stop the buttholing you’ve been taking buying raw. Good Luck
My purchases have been very targeted and my outlay pretty low. I look primarily for clashed coins in years/MM that don't have many listed clashed VAMs. If I spend $20-25 for a potential discovery piece, I will take the chance on a cleaned coin.😉
Raw coins, for me, are assumed to be fake, altered or cleaned until proven otherwise. Assuming anything is hazardous.
Yep.
It seems like the Peace Dollars are more prone to being cleaned than Morgan's for some reason. I've seen some really badly cleaned Peace Dollars that looked scoured even in the seller pictures. I think that the larger field areas of the Peace Dollar obverse make it easier to see the cleaning in the pictures, too. The thing is, I have seen far more cleaned Peace Dollars than Morgans, whether on eBay or in B&M shops. I just wonder why Peace Dollars at least seem to be victims of cleaning and polishing more than Morgan Dollars?
While I believe in accurately describing items (and believe me, I note anything wrong if I see it), it does depend on how the coin is described. As problem-free example example with a grade? If it's cleaned, it's not as described. If the seller just says "here it is" with a picture, then I'm not sure I'm going to side with you that a cleaned coin is a SNAD.
You just went from saying in-hand they need to be viewed under a microscope to see the hairlines to the hairlines are difficult to see in photos. Those statements aren't even close to being the same.
Assume any coin you see on ebay is inferior in some way until you can examine it and establish otherwise.
@airplanenut, I was talking about certain coins, acknowledging another poster's comment and stated that I had seen that as well. Those were coins I passed on. When I discussed coins looking good until under the scope, I was talking about coins that I had purchased. I guess that the context was not clear.
Ebay actually addresses these problems. They have rules. If you are unsure then don't put it up on ebay. I know that @airplanenut describes his auctions clearly and fully. However, a lot of people ignore the rules that are posted below, directly from ebay rules on selling coins:
"General guidelines for coins and paper money
Include all relevant information that you know about the item, such as origin, date of issue, and condition
Include a clear picture of the actual item being sold – don't use stock photos
Include all information about any alterations that may have been made to the item"
Cleaning, polishing etc are alterations and thus need to be described. Without such a description on a cleaned coin I'll say that it's SNAD. Lack of proper disclosure is not an excuse.
bob
What about the ones in TPG holders that are graded problem free? The last few years flooded the market with them.
That's a whole different ballgame than the OP's discussion of buying coins on ebay. If he meant graded then he needs to clear this up.
We could have a thread on that too if you want!
bob
Be my guest! I'm not going any further for fear of the hammer!
Mine was the only comment in this thread when you replied
You're making two assumptions. First, that the seller knows about the issue. Second, that there's is nothing in the photo to indicate a problem. If a coin has a gash easily seen in the photo, I don't think it needs to be called out separately in text (it doesn't hurt, but your SNAD is ridiculous if the picture shows it). Along those lines, many problems are easily seen in photos, or photos may appear to be obviously hiding something. While I don't believe sellers should be hiding things purposely, I do think buyers have a responsibility to examine what's for sale when buying. Making a purchase willy-nilly because it can always be sent back as a SNAD is a waste of everyone's time.
Besides, what happens when you disagree? I've had coins returned as cleaned because they had heavy die polish. SNAD because I didn't say the coin was cleaned--which it wasn't--but the buyer thought otherwise? Similarly, as has been mentioned, some level of alteration can still get into a slab; at what level is a light problem an actual problem, or just something that knocks down the price a little bit?
I know there are bad sellers, and I don't want to defend them, but at the same time, recognize that there are bad buyers, too. And the more they play their games, the more the good sellers will go away.
be well,
bob
In my book, you need to cancel your ebay account. Only buy in person.
7 out of 10, even 1 out of 10, and GLOATING, yes, I used the word GLOATING, over forcing them to pay postage 2 ways on an SNAD. IMHO, it is ebay abuse. I am dealing with a person who wanted to return an item, SNAD, and ebay has stepped in, and put it on hold for SNAD abuse by the buyer.
I estimate that 70 to 80% of AU and Uncirculated raw Morgan and Peace dollars on ebay are cleaned, overdipped, have hairlines, or some other problem such as a staple scratch, rim ding, or environmental damage. Unfortunately, dipping coins to get rid of "tarnish" and cleaning coins with baking soda was very common in the 60s and 70s (some coin books even recommended using baking soda) and the result of that is showing up on ebay as grandpa's coin collection gets liquidated on either directly or via a pawn shop or B&M unloading them. For the most part they are easy to spot, and the 20% or so not cleaned are still worth hunting through, but it seems to be getting more difficult.
Some of the cleaned coins are easy to spot in the seller's photos, but most aren't. 10 years ago I did not see as many cleaned coins as I am seeing now. I bought a lot of BU and circ Morgans on eBay back then and only got a cleaned coin occassionally. I started up again last month and have purchased about 16 Peace Dollars in that time period, mostly raw. A couple I knew were cleaned but bought because they were a variety that I wanted and I got them for under the price I was willing to pay. A couple I took a chance on for a potential unlisted VAM. Again, I paid under my max. In any event, of the ones that I could not tell were cleaned, I found that the majority were cleaned once I put them under the scope or loupe. I did not send any back as SNAD because the seller had the photo and gave no description as to condition or quality. He listed the date and mintmark, and said the pictured coin was the one I would receive. Yes, they are cleaned, but that was a risk that I was willing to take when I bid. The description was not misstated. The omission of the cleaning could have been intentional or not, but I have no basis for determining that.
I once sold a coin on eBay that went well below what it was worth. I was sick over it but mailed it out. The winning lowball bidder SNAD'd me for hairlines. I was happy to get it back. I just don't understand why people would buy coins on eBay with the strategy of burning the sellers for postage so that they can bid like they were looking at coins in hand. As was stated above, that sounds like abuse of SNAD. Just go to shows and B&Ms to buy if that's what you want to do.
This is why I like to go to a coin show, pull up a chair and thumb my way thru coins with loupe in hand. Satisfaction guaranteed. Peace Roy
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.where else can a seller list a steel-wool cleaned coin as BU and have repeat customers?.
etsy. ebay does not have a monopoly on ignorant "what's a loupe?" buyers.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Also add craigs list.
The coin market, through the internet, has vastly expanded. There are many sellers who really know little or nothing about coins, but have old collections given to them. They see the internet as a way to turn 'things' into cash....Of course, there are also those who know they have junk and are just converting their trash to someone's treasure...Cheers, RickO
I just assume that everything is a problem coin and bid accordingly.