Should a person be banned from a show if?
PTVETTER
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If a person try’s to sell a counterfeit coin at a show?
Second part is that a dealer already told them is was bad!
Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211
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Comments
Being banned simply depends on what the show promoter/show manager wants to do.
Selling fake coins/ attempting to sell fake coins is sufficient, IMHO.
How do you know it is a counterfeit? What if the dealer is wrong?
If they are knowingly shopping around a fake, that is another matter.
If the person is unaware the coin is counterfeit they should be educated. If the person knowingly tries to sell a coin as a legit one and they know it is counterfeit they should be banned imo.
FYI if a dealer says it is chances are it is bad, that is a fact
If a dealer says it could be bad that’s another issue.
The fact is good dealer knows.
Case in point I had a bad coin in my case less than five minutes I dealer told me it was bad
Out of the case it went and got melted.
Glad it wasn't the 1854-S Liberty Head Half Eagle that dealers insisted was fake but turned out to be real earlier this year. Or the George Walton 1913 Liberty nickel that spent years as a presumed forgery.
FYI it was a 1914 -D
$2.50 gold coin
What about dealers with undisclosed problem coins?
Collector, occasional seller
I had a dealer tell me my 1911-D $2 1/2 was fake, he was 100% positive. It graded XF45 with pcgs, and I never visited that dealer again, lol.
Dealers can easily be wrong about very many things, but any experienced counterfeit-selling perp will also plead ignorance.
It all depends on what the show promoter/ show manager wants to do.
It's their sandbox.
What about you having a chance to examine the coin in hand?
Counterfeit coin are in a different category than problem coins like cleaned coins
For the above reasons, If I was told one of my coins is fake/counterfeit, I would have to consider the dealer him/herself. If it's just Joe from Joe's Coins, I probably wouldn't consider it gospel. I would want an expert opinion; someone like Rick Snow or John Albanese, or take it to PCGS/NGC for their review. Depending on the coin and how much I had into it, I might even want a second expert opinion.
However, once I was told by someone, that the coin was probably fake/counterfeit, and if their reasoning sounded valid to me, I would pull the coin from my table until I could get the expert's view.
Steve
I'm only aware of one person banned from the show I run. He was banned by the previous promoter for making buy offers to people in the parking lot outside the show as they arrived, then flipping the coins he'd intercepted to the show dealers.
I showed a coin dealer a nice Saint Gaudens double eagle once in the early 1980's. He told me it was a counterfeit and then he proceeded to "offer to take it off my hands."
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Warning/education first.
If persists and knowingly tries to sell then remove and report to appropriate authorities, to hopefully prevent future abuse.
Are we talking about a customer shopping a coin that he might have wanted a second opinion on?
Or are we talking about a dealer at the show selling a counterfeit coin?
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From the title I thought this was going to involve crooks of a different kind.
Exactly, more than a few dealers I have run across couldn't tell a fake from the real deal and vise versa.
Agree if they are knowingly shopping around a fake well that's another story.
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yes, dealer or collector if they know it's counterfeit.
Has anyone had a leading TPG tell them a coin is fake, then resubmit the coin again only to have the same TPG slab the coin as authentic?
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A grader from a national grading company told the coin was counterfeit
Next week same coin a different show being tried to be sold.
Liars, cheaters, thieves and scammers should not be bannned from shows. Their photos ought to be publicly displayed at the entrance. Problems is: a few dealer's photos might show up on that wall, too.
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Good thing the Walton family didn't follow this advice when Stack's told them the 1913 Nickel was bad!
That said if the coin is definetly no good and the guy is still trying to sell it after being told 86'ing him seems like a good idea
My instinct says yes they should be banned. However, after reading through the comments, my perspective changed a little, even though I'd still want them banned. If the dealers are able to spot counterfeits, they have nothing to worry about. Sounds like the would be seller purchased a counterfeit and is attempting to have someone else eat their mistake. It's for this reason I like buying my coins in PCGS plastic. I'm ok with Lincolns but most other coins you could probably get one by me.
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Knowingly selling counterfeit coins should be reported and the individual sanctioned. Every case must be scrutinized though, because it could be that the individual did not know, does not trust a casual opinion and still believes it is authentic. Mistakes (as noted above) have been made... Cheers, RickO
I dislike "situational ethics", but I think in this case... it depends. I've gotten better at spotting counterfeit coins, but I am by no means an "expert". As an avid collector, I need to school myself and I seek out these expert opinions. In my experience, coin collecting is much like science.... there are reputable experts and once you get past a certain point, the field is pretty thin and most are known. If one of those dealers told me I had a fake, I'd probably just send it to PCGS to have it entombed in plastic that reads "counterfeit" and write it off as my "tuition" for being schooled. I would never try to pass it off to someone else as real. I guess some people are all about the money! To the OP... yes, if someone tries to pass off a counterfeit coin as real after being told it's fake, they should at least be banned.
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I’d say it depends. If it’s an obvious counterfeit, maybe. But why would they try and sell an obvious counterfeit?
If it’s based on unknown die pairing or something similar, I think it gets more complicated. But then again, is it ethical to attempt to sell something of even questionable provenance as authentic?
A person is more likely to be banned from shows if he holds dealers to account for dishonest raw coin grading/pricing.
Yes. Submitted two rare Chinese coins to one of the top 2 TPG and they came back as questionable authenticity. Resubmitted to other top TPG and both certified (One as a specimen). They were both sold at a major auction house with no issues.
I try not to enter shows with molds and a torch.
I have never had a major TPG that has slabbed a counterfeit coin as authentic first bounce it as a fake.
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I want to say yes, but I keep thinking of the ultra rare1854-S $5 discovery coin that was written off by a dealer as counterfeit that now resides in a NGC XF45 holder.
A different time I submitted a 1911-D weak d to NGC, and it first came back a plain 1911. There was no D visible at all, but I knew it was one, so I resubmitted, and the second time it came back AU55 weak D.
It is up to the bourse chairman.
Would u ban the guy I saw trying sell fake $2.50 Indian set in capitol Holder who did not know they fake?
RE:
FYI if a dealer says it is chances are it is bad, that is a fact
If a dealer says it could be bad that’s another issue.
The fact is good dealer knows.
Case in point I had a bad coin in my case less than five minutes I dealer told me it was bad
Out of the case it went and got melted.
You were selling a counterfeit, but fortunately there was a good dealer at the show to protect the public who caught you ... maybe you should be banned.
There is history not posted because it is private.
Remember it was a national known grader that told him the coin was fake
Same coin tried to sell to the dealer twice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!