Should I return counterfeit coins to the seller?
MorganMan94
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A month or so ago I bought some coins (well actually medals) from an auction on Liveauctioneers. Thankfully I paid with a credit card because the fakes were terrible! I know it was my mistake but I genuinely thought they were just bad photos. The auction house has decent Google reviews. I filed a claim with my credit card and won easily, but now the seller has asked me to return them to him. Should I? They are terrible fakes and likely couldn't fool anyone.
An extra: I paid $87.50 and the seller did not offer shipping of any sort so I had to call UPS to pick them up, package them, and deliver them for a total of approximately $20.
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Sounds like a crime has been commited. Ask the Justice Department I think they could advise you better. Just dont lie!
pics ?
I've always been under the impression that you cannot use the gov't mail to send fake coins through. Don't know if that is true or not but did tell that to an ebay rep years ago and they asked me to X them and then toss and not to return to a seller. I certainly would not use my money to ship anywhere, regardless.
bob
If they haven't banned you from their auctions, I would send them back if they send the UPS guy with a prepaid label and pick them up.
Take a steel punch and stamp a big C or X or something smack in the middle of both sides, otherwise, they will just be out on the street again.
who determined the medals were fake?
With the "C" or "X" they will probably be offered as rare counterstamps.
I did, but anyone who had a real one as a comparison could easily tell. It isn't silver, the rims are smooth, there are holes in the rim, and that is just a start!
The only reason I won't post photos is that there are not very many of them known and I am slowly hoarding them.
I'm a little confused. You said you made a mistake, but also say you're quietly hoarding these fakes as if you actually want them. Devil's Advocate says you in a gray area, here, as you're sort of taking a vigilante way of getting something you want from the sellers one at a time, and for no cost.
Since they're not fake coins, all you're shipping is counterfeit merchandise, which you can do as long as you're not trafficking it, I suppose. I wouldn't lift a finger to return it, though, unless there was a prepaid shipping label in my inbox, and that's only after defacing it.
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I believe he is hoarding the real medals.
He doesn't want to post pictures of the fakes or else others will know what he is collecting and may run him up when real examples come up for sale.
not illegal to mail unmarked copy medals. They are not coins.
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I would just return them and wash my hands of them.If you are getting refunded(even though you'll be out some shipping costs) then they are not your property anymore and so I would not damage or alter them...I would return them as I received them.You can't control what other folks do with them after that.....unfortunately.Call it a cheap lesson and move on.
Sorry for the confusion, I am hoarding the authentic ones. These are the first fakes that I have come across.
OK. That makes more sense.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
if you did a chargeback and kept the items, would that be like stealing them?
When I have purchased coins that turn out to be counterfeits, I offer to return them at their expense AFTER I stamp or engrave the word COPY on them. Every time they have told me to just keep them.
Seems obvious to me. If you did not pay for them (got refunded) then you have no right to keep them.
As for defacing them, they are not your property at this point. And, if made before the HPA, no marking was required. Furthermore, there are many copies in the world of exonumua that are collected as well.
For the price you paid it might have been worth considering keeping them as reference pieces.
Anyway, you got your money back, so return their property. Anything beyond that merits legal action, which of course is not feasible due to the value involved. But, unless you resolve this properly, you have burned your bridges with that auctioneer and maybe Liveauctioneers as well.
(And why did you initially refer to them as "counterfeit coins"? That only promotes confusion).
Return them. You have been reimbursed. Should have negotiated shipping for the return if you paid the shipping to get them.
This....return them
I would return them if the seller paid for the return shipping.
I doubt that's true (but I'm not a lawyer). Otherwise PCGS or other TPGS couldn't send fake/counterfeit coins back to the submitter in the mail. I know I got a fake 16d dime returned from them in the past.
You purchased an item, you received a complete refund and now you want to keep the merchandise? I'm actually shocked you were granted a refund without having to return the merchandise. Counterfeit or not the right thing to do is return.
Now all that said you shouldn't be liable for return shipping, they want item back, they should pay return all shipping fees. And where do you get $20 for shipping $87 worth of fake medals? Are you sending them registered mail all the way back to China?
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I don't want to keep the merchandise I want to dispose of it the correct way or I know it will show up in their next auction. I called them 4-5x requesting a refund and could never get ahold of them, luckily I paid by credit card and won my dispute.
If you re-read my original post when I purchased the item the seller did not provide shipping or packaging of any sort. I had to pay UPS go to out to the auction house, pick them up, package them, and ship them to me. Which they charged $20 for. So ultimately they want me to be out the $20 shipping along with $3.50 to return them to the auction house.
With all due respect, I think you need to delete your Liveauctioneers account and stick to ebay.
This was a real auction, and most do not ship. You need to arrange your own pick up or shipment.
Furthermore, I am certain that the terms of the auction house which you agreed to when you registered for the auction, clearly stated that the items are sold as is, where is, with no warranty. Unless it was an online-only auction, you had the chance to attend the preview the day or two prior to the auction where you could inspect the lots on person. If you declined to do that then you are at the mercy of the description and photos.
As it stands, you may have committed theft since you took delivery but requested a chargeback. The medals are no longer your property, regardless of how you feel about them.
Is this a serious post?
If the items are misrepresented, any signed agreement is null and void and does not apply. This sounds like a clear case of fraud on the part of the seller.
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I would return them.
OK sorry I misunderstood. Didn't realize you had to pay $20 to have shipped to you that part wasn't refunded. Seller should pay your $20 plus whatever it costs to return to them if they want back. I'd be rather upset actually to be out the $20 for fake junk but certainly better than the original $87.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
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Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Counterfeit medals are not illegal. Perhaps a copyright violation, but not something you can arbitrarily decide to seize. Return them or its theft.
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I think we are missing some more info here.
only recourse IMO is to go legal unless the seller will make you whole. IF it is illegal in the US to buy/sell /own fake medals you can just drop these off at your police station, notify your seller and done.
why did you buy them if you had your suspicion?.
Just realized something... why is this even an issue? There are only certain entities that are authorized to seize property and usually by court order.
Quite serious, and your reaction confirms to me that you might want to stay away from live auctions.
They all have time-tested disclaimers that are part of their terms that you are required to read, understand, and accept when you register for the auction. My post briefly summarized the sorts of things you would have agreed to when you registered. (Did you read them?).
Real auctions are not for the faint of heart. I am not trying to offend you, only to point out where the disconnect is between your expectations and your experiences.
I am 99.9% certain the terms stated that they do not guarantee authenticity (sometimes a narrow exception is made for signed artwork). Bidders are directed to inspect the items during the preview period to satisfy themselves in that regard.
The dollar amounts are too small for anyone in law enforcement to bother with, but try the same scenario with a big ticket item and you would be facing a messy (and expensive) legal case.
Pls be sure to share the auction house's response and that of Liveauctioneers.
If an item is sold without any warranty or guarantee of authenticity then how has it been misrepresented?
It might be helpful if the OP provided the relevant parts of the terms they agreed to.
Never invite the Man into your life. Try to work it out with the seller.
I plan on requesting a pre-paid shipping label from the auction house and then with the return shipment including some photos showing differences between authentic medals and theirs.
Medals aren't coins
Agreed. Most auctions sell "as is, where is". And, since medals have no legal tender status, they aren't really "counterfeits", they are just different medals.
They were still minted by the government and included a year so they would be counterfeit.
DON'T touch the medals, they are not your property anymore.
Return them to the seller. You can call and request them to tell you how to do it at their expense.
I don't condone rooks or numismatic fakes. I also don't appreciate vigilantes. If Ebay told you to do this, I wish the faker was rich enough and mean enough to claim he did not know they were fake and by defacing the item he was not able to get a refund from the person he bought them from anymore! Then his attorney could drag Ebay and you to court! LOL. Best to contact the seller and hope he tells you to keep them. Then you can deface them.
The auctioneer in most cases is not the seller. They have probably already settled with the consignor. Frequently the auctioneer does NOT know for sure what it is they are selling. That is when the buyer can get something for a good price. I try to stay away from auction houses that do not ship in-house. They end up going to a USP store or something similar. This basically puts the shipping into the $25-$50 range. You need to add that into your bids, as well as the buyers premium and sales tax if it applies.
After reading this thread, the only thing I'm left with is a feeling of shock as to how many coin/ medal collectors are contracts and IP attorneys.
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Is it possible that some things are evident? You don't need to be a doctor to know that someone has a bloody nose!
Remember, we all have opinions. Some are worthless and some are not. If you wish to add your opinion, it should actually add something more useful to the discussion for the OP.
I would return them after the auction house provided a way to return them on their dime!
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I've always considered you an intelligent person. Certainly making a common sense assertion of opinion (as you illustrate) takes neither special skills nor training. Discussions of the law or legality, however - just as much as discussions of etiology - go beyond mere observation.
Further, it seems that the question is really one of moral and ethical considerations.
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Pay the shipping cost and free yourself of this dilemma. Send back the darn thing
All the time spent discussing and trying to decide .... already worth hundreds.
I disagree! This appears to be much more involved than ethics. Money and property was transferred. Did the seller commit a crime or is he just ignorant? How does ownership transfer? If an item is fake can ownership actually transfer? Seems the auction house is assumed to take care of a consignment. If a buyer returns a damaged item what happens!
Shucks, I thought you could answer with some of the legal considerations about "property" I just outlined BECAUSE ANYTING I POST is just another uninformed opinion based on something that seems pretty evident to me: RETURN THE MEDAL and don't change its condition in any way!
Just pay the $3 or whatever to first class them back. The $20 is a sunk cost so forget about it.
Collector, occasional seller
I think it's called "tuition".
No need to mail it back via a UPS store like it was shipped originally. The USPS will take care of it for 5 or 6 bucks. Just be sure that Delivery Confirmation is included as the auction house may not feel compelled to accept returns, so proof of delivery might be important. (Best case scenario is to get them to agree to a return, if possible).
Tell him to pay you the $20 plus return postage & then return them
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