Amazing ebay and the 1909 SVDB
mr1931S
Posts: 6,549 ✭✭✭✭✭
Yesterday, i was looking at ebay coin listings and shocked to see the news that many 1909 SVDB cents have been found recently.
It seems there were a lot of old penny rolls made in days gone by that have a VDB visible on both coins at the roll ends. Multiple sellers on ebay have them. Some sellers have more than one roll like this.
If it wasn't for the fact these rolls end up being quite pricey from frenzied bidding, I would order as many as I could. Then I would inspect the VDB's to see if they are the same as used on genuine 1909 SVDB cents. If not just return the roll for refund. Of course, one would not open the roll to see what else might be in the roll otherwise money would not be returned.
Has anyone here ever bought a roll of cents on ebay with VDB appearing on both end coins and actually gotten a 1909 SVDB out of the roll?
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
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So are you having Chinese for dinner? Be vewwy cahful. Peace Roy
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No.... I have not heard of anyone finding a genuine 1909S VDB in one of those rolls from ebay....I have seen them for years.... almost went for one back in the late '90's... but common sense ruled.... Cheers, RickO
So are you having Chinese for dinner? Be vewwy cahful.
So are you saying there is a risk of getting an amazing Chinese counterfeit 1909 SVDB with the VDB looking good for SVDB on inspection by the buyer who doesn't open the roll?
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Of course if one actually did get a counterfeit SVDB in a roll one should still be able to get their money back for the roll or would a refund be not allowed if the roll is opened?
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Don't tell me... these were all "unsearched" rolls... lol...
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_almost went for one back in the late '90's... but common sense ruled.... _
Was the VDB diagnostic, to distinguish 1909 SVDB from 1909 VDB, in place in the late '90's? i'm thinking no it wasn't but don't know for sure.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
these were all "unsearched" rolls
I didn't see the word "unsearched" used once in all the listings i saw of rolls with VDB coin on each end of the roll.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
The VDB style found on the S coins is also found on philly coins.
Collector, occasional seller
The check, I’m sure, is in the mail.
One could order as many of these rolls with VDB showing and then video document the inspection episodes as evidence for ebay to get one's money back. Put that high tech we have to work.
Find a coin that looks to be an authentic 1909 SVD then send it in for certification. If it gets certified, great. If not then one has evidence on video to show ebay for money back.
Using original mintage numbers ( remember, these are supposed to be original bank wrapped rolls) the ratio of plain VDB to SVDB is about 58 to 1. That means that out of 29 rolls with end coins being VDB coin there is a reasonable expectation that one will find at least one 1909 SVDB.
Of course, many rolls would not need to be opened but simply returned for money back.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
It's interesting that anyone would be shocked to discover that the 1909-S VDB is a common coin - nearly a half million were struck, and people began saving them in 1909.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
The VDB style found on the S coins is also found on philly coins.
That is shocking news to me. Are you sure about this? Captain Henway published the VDB diagnostic here a few years ago and I was under the impression then that it was bulletproof.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
As far as I know the diagnostic is because 100% of S-VDBs have that style of VDB. I think it is a means of weeding out fakes rather than confirming authenticity. The mint mark style and position is needed in addition to matching initials type.
From coinfacts images. One of these is an S VDB, the other is a P.
Collector, occasional seller
They all seem to be machine rolled. And since that did not become popular until the 1950's (invented in 1947 I think) it would absolutely amaze me that one could be found in such roll. As a kid in the 50's I searched high and low, in pockets and banks and never found even one. Odds of getting an 09svdb in such a roll are much less than .01%.
bob
This thread is a joke, right?
Aside from the other red flags why would anyone expect to find a random S VDB in a bank roll of VDBs? Either the roll is from San Francisco or it isn't. They will either all be S or none of them will be.
Segarini's Market had none back then. I know they ...banned... my buddy and me from exchanging pennies......BUT.... my mother convinced them that her purchases dictated a change in that policy.
The dot in the middle of the D and B is from Philadelphia
_This thread is a joke, right?
Aside from the other red flags why would anyone expect to find a random S VDB in a bank roll of VDBs? _
The rolls i'm talking about that are sold on ebay are not solid VDB's, 50 coins. The roll END coins have VDB showing. Two known VDB coins in a roll, other words.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
As a kid in the 50's I searched high and low, in pockets and banks and never found even one. Odds of getting an 09svdb in such a roll are much less than .01%.
And so did i and every other kid i knew. That was in the '60's. The pharmacist in town found one though. He invited me and my friend over to his house to see it. He told us that he found his 1909 SVDB in a bag of pennies he bought from a Nebraska bank. I was under the impression he found it just a few years earlier, maybe 1958 or 1959. Lustrous, About Uncirculated. Needless to say,me and my friend were in awe.
I need to find the material Captain Henway published.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
They both look centered to me. If you mean the second one it's this coin.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/25350756
Add- The first coin is https://www.pcgs.com/cert/02558533
Collector, occasional seller
Those rolls with potentially "rare" coins on the ends seem to be the most common coin scam on ebay (so many Morgan rolls with "CC" on one end and 1879 on the other). Yet tons of suckers fall for them which is why they continue.
The lower part of the "D" on the first coin appears to have a steeper angle than the "D" on the second coin.
My understanding is that 1909 SVDB always has all periods prominent. 1909 VDB may have all periods prominent but only a small percentage of the Philadelphia issue has all periods prominent. I once had a 1909 VDB with all periods prominent. Wish i still had it.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Probably my Imogene> @ChrisH821 said:
Probably my imagination but the period on the initial V in the lower photo seems higher up the letter than the top photo, distinguishing the two coins from each other. Like I said might be my imagination. I’m a Barber guy
If someone says I’m wrong I won’t be offended 🙂
According to Henway, 1909 SVDB should have the dot between the "D" and the "B" centered.
According to IrishMikey, every matte proof 1909 VDB he has ever seen has the centered dot and every genuine 1909 SVDB comes with the centered dot.
IrishMikey said, referencing his work with P-mint VDB's, " while it appears from initial numbers that the "centered" dot reverse is in the minority, quite a few of them have showed up lately, so i would not call them rare."
As for 'all periods prominent" for 1909 SVDB, that comes from Detecting Altered Coins by Bert Harsche. Harsche simply says that all 1909 SVDB's that he has seen had all periods prominent but he does not rule out that some SVDB's might not have all periods prominent.
Henway discusses letter size differences on the two master dies used to make the VDB reverse. I'm not really seeing "taller v. shorter" that he discusses but i do see a difference in the shape of the "B" that he notes however the images used there were much larger than the ones posted here so a difference there would be easier to see with the more enlarged images.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Read the comments. About every 5th roll has an 09-S VDB, a 14-D, some 22 plains, etc.
Rolls from 1953 often have a 55 Doubled die.
Donate your money to someone on the FEMA list instead of getting a greedy scammer richer.
The only "pig in a poke" on ebay that I ever bought, and I bought, IIRC, 7 lots, of a "coin shop" being liquidated, back in the Wild West days of ebay, when it was only auction, were some 100 IIRC coin lots, guaranteed to range from 1 cent to $1 Silver Dollars, multiples of each, with gold guaranteed in every lot. It has been too long, but the 1st few lots I won went for under $75, but the last few were over $200, and they took off from there.
The coins I got were nice, virtually all BU in 2x2's, lots of silver, average of about 4 Silver dollars, but not a single gold coin anywhere. I questioned the seller, and the response was that he had corrected the listings to read Chance of gold in every lot. He offered my money back on the +$100 lots, if I returned them, and told me just to keep the sub $100 lots, which I did. Details a little fuzzy, as it was 15+ years ago, +/-.
A few years ago I went for some rolls of pennies on ebay that were described as original bank wrapped, rolled in the forties. The rolls weren't cheap but I thought I would give it a chance.
I found many '30's and '40's dates in the first roll I opened. None of the '30's dates seen, however, had little wear. Most of the coins in the roll were without mintmark. Wouldn't one expect to find at least a few '30's dates with very little wear and some with mint luster if the pennies were really rolled by a bank in the '40's?
I didn't even open the second roll. Asked for my money back from seller and got it after returning both rolls, one opened and one unopened. Seller acted dumbfounded that I was not happy with the high-priced ordinary pennies he sent me that sell for about 10-15 cents apiece if bought individually. Seller got positive feedback from me only because he promptly refunded money. I see he's still selling these rolls on ebay.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
Has anyone here ever bought a roll of cents on ebay with VDB appearing on both end coins and actually gotten a 1909 SVDB out of the roll?
Nagging questions:
Is the jury still out on a centered dot between D and B must be seen on genuine 1909-S V.D.B?
Do some 1909 plain V.D.B.'s for sure have the dot centered between the D and B?
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
I have 2 1909 plain VDBs. Both have the centered dot.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I have one P VDB with a centered dot and two that are not, finding a VDB with a centered dot at the end of roll will not be a guarantee you have found an S-VDB. Those rolls you are looking at are most likely just circ wheaties.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
That's what I was thinking while reading this thread.
12 year old thread?
excuse me 2 year old thread.
1909 V.D.B.'s with or without the 's' are timeless...
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.