What are some tips and tricks for protecting your coins from a fire?

abcde12345 · November 10, 2018 1:58PM

I have a safe, yet it is not fire resistant. Those type of safes can damage coins. What are some methods used to protect coins from heat and smoke?

topstuf · November 10, 2018 2:07PM

One of these will fit INSIDE most safes.

They're advertised as waterproof, too. The "rating" would be far lower than a fireproof SAFE, but when you consider fire has to get IN the safe to get TO the box, it seems worth it.
They hold 2 blue PCGS boxes pretty neatly.

davewesen · November 10, 2018 2:20PM

I am not sure a 'fireproof' safe would keep the heat low enough to not melt or dis-form slabs.

Smudge · November 10, 2018 2:32PM

Wonder how safe deposit boxes would fare if a bank caught fire.

topstuf · November 10, 2018 4:54PM

@davewesen said:
I am not sure a 'fireproof' safe would keep the heat low enough to not melt or dis-form slabs.

My post suggested a FIREBOX... inside... the safe.

yosclimber · November 10, 2018 5:07PM

Fire-resistant safes

A fire-resistant safe is a type of safe that is designed to protect its contents from high temperatures or actual fire. Fire resistant safes are usually rated by the amount of time they can withstand the extreme temperatures a fire produces, while not exceeding a set internal temperature, e.g., less than 350 °F (177 °C). Models are typically available between half-hour and four-hour durations.

Document safes are designed to maintain an internal temperature no greater than 177 °C (351 °F) while in a constantly heated environment in excess of 1,000 °C (1,830 °F).

Data safes are designed to maintain an internal temperature no greater than 55 °C (131 °F) while in a constantly heated environment in excess of 1,000 °C (1,830 °F).

These conditions are maintained for the duration of the test. This is usually at least 30 minutes but can extend to many hours depending on grade.

An in-floor safe installed in a concrete floor is very resistant to fire. However, not all floor safes are watertight and will often fill with water from fire hoses, therefore everything stored inside should be placed in either double zip lock bags, dry bags, or sealed plastic containers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe#Fire-resistant_safes

thefinn · November 10, 2018 5:10PM

@Smudge said:
Wonder how safe deposit boxes would fare if a bank caught fire.

Not well. They are all metal, so they would get pretty hot. I don't know what insurance would be used to cover fire in rented storage. The bank would claim no responsibility.

jesbroken · November 10, 2018 5:13PM

I think the fact that a safe is just "fireproof" is not the most important thing as most manufacturers have various heat rating models and they maintain the temperature inside the safe in a range from 350 to 451 temp inside the safe for 1 hour while the external temp reaches 1700 degrees Fahrenheit. This is considered a fairly safe range, but many go lower and trick you by stating the fire temp outside the safe as a large number but the temp inside and the duration may not be so obviously stated. This is my opinion and if someone with knowledge of this safe feature can better explain it or show us, I would appreciate it.
Jim

Smudge · November 10, 2018 5:18PM

Maybe some "midnight gardening" would be safer, but with my memory, maybe not.

topstuf · November 10, 2018 5:30PM

@thefinn said:

@Smudge said:
Wonder how safe deposit boxes would fare if a bank caught fire.

Not well. They are all metal, so they would get pretty hot. I don't know what insurance would be used to cover fire in rented storage. The bank would claim no responsibility.

From what I've seen of BANK safe deposit boxes, there is very little flammable material IN the ...vault.

lkenefic · November 10, 2018 5:35PM

I have a UL rated firelined gun safe. It's supposed to keep the contents below 350F for 45 minutes. From what I've seen coming out of CA, that's not enough.

ms70 · November 10, 2018 5:37PM

Some fire rated safes are made with materials that are impregnated with moisture. I don't know which ones or if they still make them like that, but just beware.

lkenefic · November 10, 2018 6:13PM

@ms70 said:
Some fire rated safes are made with materials that are impregnated with moisture. I don't know which ones or if they still make them like that, but just beware.

I've seen that. Mine is pretty "old school" and has a ceramic liner. It adds to the weight of the unit tremendously.

BillDugan1959 · November 10, 2018 6:15PM

@topstuf said:

@thefinn said:

@Smudge said:
Wonder how safe deposit boxes would fare if a bank caught fire.

Not well. They are all metal, so they would get pretty hot. I don't know what insurance would be used to cover fire in rented storage. The bank would claim no responsibility.

From what I've seen of BANK safe deposit boxes, there is very little flammable material IN the ...vault.

There was a bank branch nearby constructed late 1960s. The building was torn down and removed in three days, but the vault took over three weeks and had to be taken apart with a jack hammer a few inches at a time. If the vault door had not been open when the demolition started, it might have taken longer. All 100% steel and concrete. That vault was never going to burn unless our Sun went super-nova. The inner construction of the individual safe deposit boxes was not a factor.

The bank vault where my coins rest was built about the same time and IIRC, very similar.

Al21 · November 10, 2018 6:18PM

The only safes to protect their contents in the Sonoma Co. fires were in slab safes. Talked to a locksmith and he said all above ground safes he saw ( I think 17) failed ( contents were destroyed). In these types of fires the houses are allowed to burn. They burn hotter and longer than safes are rated. My buddy had a small round safe in his garage slab and everything in it survived.

rte592 · November 10, 2018 6:19PM

A safe in a good fire rated safe would be best...buying a bigger safe then you need and lining the inside with the concrete backer board might help.

Hemispherical · November 10, 2018 6:45PM

You get what you pay for. Unless you are willing to spend five digits (before the decimal point) of Innobucks. A safe is a very limited and temporary safeguard against fire (hence, the various ratings for safes); and the hope is that the fire department arrives to extinguish promptly. Which probably will not occur if there a firestorm as we have read. 😟

The coin will probably not melt but the damage from other items that would probably be packed in the safe will make an impact. Important papers, plastic, photos and who knows what else people put in their safes. All these will smolder, melt, or release caustic fumes in the safe once the ignition, flash, or melt point is reached.

What is needed is good insurance, back-ups of important documents, etc. But most importantly a well thought-out (who retrieves what) and practiced evacuation/escape plan(s) that needs to considered before any emergency.

Which reminds me of PACE for any type of planning.

P-rimary
A-lternate
C-ontingency
E-mergency

Sorry, going OT so I will end here.

Edited typos.

thefinn · November 10, 2018 7:00PM

@topstuf said:

@thefinn said:

@Smudge said:
Wonder how safe deposit boxes would fare if a bank caught fire.

Not well. They are all metal, so they would get pretty hot. I don't know what insurance would be used to cover fire in rented storage. The bank would claim no responsibility.

From what I've seen of BANK safe deposit boxes, there is very little flammable material IN the ...vault.

It's not the flames, it's the heat.

thefinn · November 10, 2018 7:02PM

@BillDugan1959 said:

@topstuf said:

@thefinn said:

@Smudge said:
Wonder how safe deposit boxes would fare if a bank caught fire.

Not well. They are all metal, so they would get pretty hot. I don't know what insurance would be used to cover fire in rented storage. The bank would claim no responsibility.

From what I've seen of BANK safe deposit boxes, there is very little flammable material IN the ...vault.

There was a bank branch nearby constructed late 1960s. The building was torn down and removed in three days, but the vault took over three weeks and had to be taken apart with a jack hammer a few inches at a time. If the vault door had not been open when the demolition started, it might have taken longer. All 100% steel and concrete. That vault was never going to burn unless our Sun went super-nova. The inner construction of the individual safe deposit boxes was not a factor.

The bank vault where my coins rest was built about the same time and IIRC, very similar.

How is is rated for HEAT. Coins don't burn, they MELT! Concrete and steel is what kilns are made out of.

BillDugan1959 · November 10, 2018 7:15PM

There was nothing to burn outside the vault. The two outer walls were three feet thick and surrounded by the outside/outdoors parking lot. There vault walls were just as thick inside the building, and the fire/ flammable stuff inside the building was never going to amount to much or for very long.

Did somebody just teach you the word 'kiln' and you want to use it over and over? Kilns work by burning fuel inside the darn thing and the outside walls remain relatively cool. Chimneys the same way. It ain't rocket science. Vaults protect from outside burning. You don't store fuel inside a vault (and even if you did, there might not be enough oxygen in a sealed vault to sustain the burn). Sheesh.

BryceM · November 10, 2018 8:30PM

Most home gun “safes” are correctly described as “residential storage containers.” The fireproofing is usually slabs of sheetrock (which is gypsum or hydrated calcium sulfate.). When heated, the energy goes to spitting the water molecules away from the calcium sulfate molecules until the water is depleted. Steam is released. This takes time, and as others have said, they’re basically designed to keep things protected until the local fire department shows up.

You generally get what you pay for. Heavy gauge steel and decent fireproofing are expensive and frightfully heavy. Sadly, a savvy thief with $40 worth of power tools from harbor freight can cut the sides off of any of these in 5-10 minutes. Casual attacks and idiots looking for drug money can be deterred.

An SDB is a much better bet from thieves & fire, but still potentially susceptible to flooding and inaccessibility in case of an actual large-scale disaster.

A fire box inside a decent home “safe” is a fairly good bet, but severely size limited. Oh, and don’t store ammunition in a safe. When it gets warm enough it’ll blow the door wide open & torch everything inside.

TheRegulator · November 10, 2018 9:09PM

@BillDugan1959 said:

Did somebody just teach you the word 'kiln' and you want to use it over and over? Kilns work by burning fuel inside the darn thing and the outside walls remain relatively cool. Chimneys the same way. It ain't rocket science. Vaults protect from outside burning. You don't store fuel inside a vault (and even if you did, there might not be enough oxygen in a sealed vault to sustain the burn). Sheesh.

Get a load of this... Home insulation helps keep a house warmer in the winter, and cooler in the summer.

As others have said, at those temps and that length of time, it won't end well.

Raybo · November 10, 2018 9:21PM

SDB and that's it.

Paradisefound · November 10, 2018 9:24PM

I don't have enough to warrant SDB but now reconsidering the option given the current fire situation :'(

BryceM · November 10, 2018 10:44PM

PF, I’m not sure what sort of thing protects from Pele. Not even an SDB can withstand a river of lava.

Timbuk3 · November 11, 2018 1:53AM

Interesting topic, thank you all for sharing !!!

Soldi · November 11, 2018 5:30AM

@Smudge said:
Maybe some "midnight gardening" would be safer, but with my memory, maybe not.

Some of my best metal detecting finds come from this practice google "pesky vdi 93" and see.

blitzdude · November 11, 2018 5:34AM

Bury them at least 24" deep in the ground. No need to spend money on a safe, besides that's the first place a thief will go.

topstuf · November 11, 2018 5:43AM

Sold coins are 100% impervious to fire!

bigjpst · November 11, 2018 7:18AM

I have no idea how long safe deposit vaults are rated for, but the sprinklers in the ceiling of the bank will probably help more than my garden hose before the FD gets there.

ricko · November 11, 2018 8:11AM

Fire resistant safes, as mentioned above, have moisture impregnated linings... this is not good for long term storage of papers and some other products (firearms for sure - rust).... I have a friend who has such a safe, and found many of his papers stored long term had formed mold...for fires such as in CA, it is unlikely any safe will have preserved it contents if the home is fully engulfed (except perhaps floor safes encased in concrete)...Prior planning in fire zones such as CA is necessary... Cheers, RickO

asheland · November 11, 2018 3:07PM

Interesting thread!

topstuf · November 11, 2018 3:33PM

Hemispherical · November 11, 2018 3:36PM

@topstuf said:

Up yonder by Fort Carson... maybe, maybe not.

OldIndianNutKase · November 11, 2018 5:03PM

The requirements are not hard to specify........

100 feet minimum from any combustible material.
Reinforced concrete enclosure, purged with nitrogen and having a copper liner to eliminate any electromagnetic exposure
Vacuum pump to further aid the amount of nitrogen required.
Active penetration and heat alarms to notify you of intrusions
Contract with wells fargo for monitoring all of the above.

As a compromise I keep my coins in a SDB........know full well that I have no million dollar coins to worry about.And for the coins in my house safe........a fir might just give them special toning that greatly increase their value........while being a total write-off on my insurance policy.

ALL safes are good ideas.......

OINK

ReadyFireAim · November 11, 2018 9:50PM

@Al21 said:
My buddy had a small round safe in his garage slab and everything in it survived.

+1 for the slab safe but you have to hide it because they generally aren't that tool resistant.
There might be several inches of water on the floor after a fire also.

I have a friend who punched out a couple of cement blocks on his exterior wall and concealed it behind furnace ducting about 3' above the floor.
He also employed a decoy safe filled with a bunch of junk.

I have a small collection so it will easily fit in a SDB & high resolution pictures if I want to look at them.

What are some tips and tricks for protecting your coins from a fire?

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