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Why do the top TPG assign so few plus grades?
Elemint
Posts: 479 ✭✭✭✭
I've seen enough coins where the reverse and or obverse could easily be in the next grade up. Also, some series have
a higher percentage of plus designations than others, for example the 1921 Morgan opposed to the 1938 D Buffalo.
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No real idea. I think I only have 3 or so plus coins.
Couple that immediately come to mind:
One is a 53 PR66+ Washie that I could swear is at least cam but they didn't designate, another is a 68+ 72-S Ike Dollar, I imagine the $3k price increase to 69 had something to do with that. https://www.pcgs.com/cert/35495869 I would really like to do an in hand comparison to any of the MS69 coins out there.
Collector, occasional seller
Not that this should be a factor but undoubtedly the price jumps are part of the reason. I don’t think I have ever seen a 38-D Buffalo in 65+ but there are many in 67+. In fact, there are only 30 of the former but 121 of the latter even though there are 20,000+ coins in each of 65 and 66. Of course, there are probably a lot of 67+ resubmission trying for a 68.
It is also harder to grade certain coins so splitting hairs seems less justified for say, standing liberty quarters < MS66 than for a Morgan between 63 and 66.
I am not sure but I wonder if sometimes it has to do with market grading, and the price jump between the plus and the next higher grade.
Maybe because the "TPG" service thinks it's a 65 and is strong for the grade but doesn't quite make it to 66.
Something of an example:
Let's say I've got a MS65 with a + grade or MS65+. Then that coin is sent into CAC for review. CAC puts a green bean on it because they agreed with the 65+ grade. However, in theory, if the TPG service had given the same coin a MS65 grade without the plus, then CAC should give it a gold bean.
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I've got a couple CC with a + grade but I do not go out of my way to pay the extra bump for these Plus grades.
I see many more pluses on foreign coins than on US coins for some reason.
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CAC is on record that they do not consider pluses when deciding whether to award a bean of either color. A 65 and a 65+ are considered the same by CAC.
So if the coin that I posted above was just given a 65 by PCGS, then it would still have been given a green been?
I wonder how any coins get a gold bean. Makes me wonder about CAC's statement as follows:
For many years, coin dealers and advanced collectors have used the letters A, B, and C among themselves to further describe coins. C indicates low-end for the grade, B indicates solid for the grade, and A indicates high-end. CAC will only award stickers to coins in the A or B category. C coins, although accurately graded, will be returned without a CAC sticker
I guess if the coin above was bumped to a 66 by PCGS then CAC would consider it weak (or a C) for a 66 grade.
Yes.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
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So either the + or the Bean is redundant then, right?
As I was reading down the thread I was thinking: I remember when “slabbing” a coin was considered blasphemy; now collectors are voluntarily submitting to two levels of scrutiny.
I get it; most of my collection is slabbed. Everybody wants to get what they put in, and there are the registry points and such but what are we doing to ourselves. I just spent $400 to cross 10 coins; didn’t get but 3 and wondered am I that far off my game or is it some of what y’all are talking about as well.
That aspect just doesn’t seem to ever go away.
Where can I find out more on the sticker/CAC program?
Yes, it is redundant, but that's the whole purpose of CAC - to provide a second third-party opinion.
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www.caccoin.com
There have also been many heated discussions about it around here.
Collector, occasional seller
Sooooo, following the logic above, if PCGS thinks it's a 65+ but CAC doesn't recognize a + grade and gives the coin a green bean and not a gold bean, then CAC must not think the coin is a strong (or A) 65. Maybe to get a gold been it would have to be "outstanding for the grade" or need to be a ~66 in a 65 slab, in their opinion.
No, gold sticker means at least the next grade up. In your example 65+ to 66 or higher. The green bean means they think the 65+ is either a 65 "A" or "B".
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
IMO makes sense that the TPG's split hairs when it is worth doing so, when there is a meaningful price difference between grades. One reason perhaps that pluses are not given at lower grades. If I were a grader, I wouldn't take the time to try to differentiate between two grades with a small price difference, not a good use of my time. Since there are a huge number of graded common coins, then pluses would be scarce overall.
I only just noticed that the A in the CAC logo is actually a fancy JA merged together.... clever John Albanese, clever.
Anyway, it doesn't say on their site anywhere what the actual meaning of the gold sticker is. If it is on there I missed it. Seems that it is just commonly agreed that the gold bean means the coin exceeds their standards for the assigned grade.
Collector, occasional seller
I have had plus coins not receive a sticker from CAC.
Many of the plus graded coins do not pass, such as $20 Saints and Libs., I see Apmex selling them and you can be sure they would be sent to cac with the significant upside on those.
Also just noticed the logo on their website isn't the one used on the sticker... huh.
Anyway, carry on.
Collector, occasional seller
Now that's a little surprising.
Maybe, maybe not. Coins get gold beans when the TPG misses on the grade. There have been past comments here about ms64 coins getting regraded to ms66 and getting the green bean at both grades.
I think maybe it's falling out of fashion.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Not really. Grades are not objective and people differ in their assignment of them. CAC may have different opinions than TPGs, and TPGs may have different opinions from each other, and individual graders at TPGs may have different opinions than do other individual graders at the same TPG. If they all graded consistently, objectively, and equally then CAC wouldn't exist.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
How many MS grades are there now?
MS60, MS60 with green CAC, MS60 with gold CAC, MS61, MS61 with green CAC, MS61 with gold CAC, MS62, MS62 with green CAC, MS62 with gold CAC, MS62+, MS62+ with green CAC, MS62+ with gold CAC, MS63, MS63 with green CAC, MS63 with gold CAC, MS63+, MS63+ with green CAC, MS63+ with gold CAC, MS64, MS64 with green CAC, MS64 with gold CAC, MS64+, MS64+ with green CAC, MS64+ with gold CAC, MS65, MS65 with green CAC, MS65 with gold CAC, MS65+, MS65+ with green CAC, MS65+ with gold CAC, MS66, MS66 with green CAC, MS66 with gold CAC, MS66+, MS66+ with green CAC, MS66+ with gold CAC, MS67, MS67 with green CAC, MS67 with gold CAC, MS67+, MS67+ with green CAC, MS67+ with gold CAC, MS68, MS68 with green CAC, MS68 with gold CAC, MS68+, MS68+ with green CAC, MS68+ with gold CAC, MS69, MS69 with green CAC, MS69 with gold CAC, MS70, MS70 with green CAC.
Sorry, I didn't count it up. I guess I could also add each of the above with a star designation. That would add even greater clarity.
Think of this: A given coin WOULD BE PRICED DIFFERENTLY for each of the above designations.
Clearly this has reached a point of lunacy. There wasn't consistency when we had less than a handful of MS grades.
As for the question posed by the OP, I think the services intended to give a "+" to the top 10% of coins in a given grade. A large part of what is already in the pop report was graded before the plus even existed. It will be decades before they've had a chance to grade and regrade all of these. Many are in old collections that don't get churned through the regrade mill every few months (weeks).
As for what it means...... well, it really means nothing. There are no standards. It's not scientific at all. The coins are what they are. It means someone (or a few someones) was of a particular opinion on a particular day. I've had coins go up, go down, get plusses, get stickers only after they upgrade but not before, had plus coins not sticker...... it's all anecdotal and given large enough numbers of grading events, it's not hard to find anything you're looking for.
Once again... grades are an opinion. There is very little difference (as perceived by human eye and judged by no standards) between (for example) a 65 and 66. Yet we have plus signs added to further split the nonexistent standard....The plus sign is a stop gap to avoid going to decimal grades...Oh, and for those that consider it for 'eye appeal'... well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder... so how many shades of grey (or tarnish) will we have now??? Grades without standards are opinions without facts. Cheers, RickO
I agree that the plus seem to be silly. If I also seen some minus signs then it would make more sense.
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In the context of stimulating more submissions, then the grading companies decision to introduce these additional levels makes sense. It is a business that must earn a profit to survive.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I've seen the PCGS plus designation awarded to many coins with rainbow toning. The correlation being it was given a plus designation for the toning, not for it's relative rank to the assigned numerical grade.
Reality. People cannot reliably discern the differences between single points on the present 60-70 range. Thus produces a statistical overlap and so-called "plus" (where are the "minus") grades fit within this overlap. The result is persistent inconsistency and confusion with the outcome being that "plus" grades are meaningless -- even more so that inflated and inconsistent ordinary numerical grades.
Absence of these useless critters is likely a boon to collectors.
In the old days...
At one time a + was used by just about everyone to signify the top half of any grade level. So the VF bracket of wear on a coin could be broken down exactly in half to VF and VF+. These days a VF+ would possibly equate to a VF-30 or 35. What that did was just add another point of confusion and subjectivity to each grade.
Before pluses, a coin was Fine or VF. After pluses a coin was Fine or VF; VF or VF+ so each grade added one more point where liners could result.
As a side note to be immediately forgotten as I don't wish to confuse you, during this time, the technical grading system used the + designation much differently. We reserved the + for liners ONLY. These were coins that could be called VF one day and XF on another (numbers would be 39's (which # did not actually exist or 40). In this way, the internal grading used to ID a coin could be more precise as very few coins rated a +.
I believe today a + can be given for either the top half of a grade or for any coin with exceptional eye appeal within a grade. Example: There is a discussion showing two coins graded MS-67+. While both are attractive, one is environmentally damaged.
I've noticed that pluses can be a sign of laziness. Some grading services were late to the Plus and Star "game." More and more seem to be given out by all the TPGS's. This is possibly due to older coins (before stars) being upgraded. IMO, these two designations should be scarce and practically non-existent for some series of coins.
Better question: why do they assign any?
My Theory is because it's a hassle to hit the shift key to get a +
Steve
I have a dozen or so AU58+ bust halves. Each, I feel, is deserving for the surfaces, strike, color, and eye appeal. I have another dozen or more that are equally, or even more so deserving (IMO), but PCGS doesn't see it that way.
Several friends in the BHNC are scratching their heads over this issue as well. Their experiences are identical to mine.
Just when you begin to think you know what PCGS likes you come across one that makes no sense at all. Here's an example. I don't have a problem with the AU58 grade or even the CAC sticker. But to me this coin does not deserve a plus. It has neutral eye appeal at best.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.
Lance.
https://ebay.com/itm/Pop-1-1830-50c-large-AU58-PCGS-CAC-Bust-Half/113329551374?hash=item1a62f7b80e:g:RjAAAOSwKO5bxB~-:rk:2:pf:1&frcectupt=true
No, it wouldn't. + isn't a grade. The coin is an MS65 regardless of whether or not it has a + after the number.
I think the big difference is who made up the team of graders each time. If they had all been sent in at the same time, they may have all come back AU58 or AU58+.
Well it might not be a grade, but our host (and many/most dealers) must think it means something. PCGS gives you .5 of point for a + grade in their registry calculations and they list prices for +'s on their price list. And dealers always seem to want more money for + grades. (When they are selling
Of course if they are going to use (+) for coins that are strong (A) for the grade, maybe they should also give (-) for coins weak (C) for the grade. No + or - would be the middle of the road (B) for the coin. Or maybe they they should quit trying to split hair lines (no pun intended).
That's a logical assumption. I like it. Unfortunately, they were submitted for plus-grading in one submission. Well, about 50 of them.
Lance.
I think the + was given to that coin not for its eye appeal but for the fact that it is really closer to Unc than many of the coins in this series with flat high points that show loss of luster.
Recently I was underbidder on a nice MS 67 walker. I went about $300 above book as it was really nice, and I liked it. Not quite enough, though, for it sold for one increment higher. I saw the same coin-not a similar coin-in a MS67+ holder a couple months later that brought over 12 grand to the fortunate upgrader, Four times the MS67 price! I agree with you, AlexinPA in I will not pay an extreme premium on a 'plus' grade unless it is really extra special.
I do prefer the star system ATS. Almost all the starred coins I have seen ARE eye appealing for whatever grade they are. A lot of 'plus' coins I have seen are, well. meh.
Right. I do my best to buy the coin and not the slab. If it is really a beaut I may put out some extra cash. $300.00 above book; must have been a real beauty; good for you.