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NGC Sues City Gold for allegedly counterfeiting various 18th c. Countermarks, (Brasher, Burger, etc)
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https://archive.org/details/NGCvCityGold/page/n0
Images from the above document copied/pasted below;
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Yep, no liars and cheats back in the old days
everything back then was real, no fakes ever 
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
Interesting, thanks for sharing !!!
+1
U.S. Type Set
No, it's that the older / contemporary liars and cheats are collectible
What does the little “four circle” countermark behind the bust have to do with this? It’s circled above. I have a coin with that same mark.
Thanks.
I too have a coin (a Central American Republic gold piece) with the same mark. I have seen a few other pictures of coins with the mark. i don't know if anyone has identified where or what it is. There may be a reference to it in the Coinage of the Americas book series - I think that's where I saw the other pictures.
Good! Sue all the counterfeiters, foreign and domestic, convict and put 'em in prison, and confiscate their revenue and equipment. I keep listening to "industry leaders" whining and moaning and dragging their feet, and making all sorts of excuses for failure to act on their responsibilities to ALL of the legitimate collectors and manufacturers.
This will be interesting.... I wonder how long this case will take to wallow through the legal system. Cheers, RickO
Gallows, firing squad, electric chair, and lethal injection are all reasonable alternatives.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
How much do the countermarks add to the value.
From the court filing.
Lance.
This is deeply disturbing. I collect counterstamps, but fortunately not ones in this category. Forgeries are always a concern. Most counterstamped coins were considered a minor niche in the hobby that did not attract this sort of attention or criminal element. I guess that is changing. Good for NGC for taking legal action.
So I noticed the file date of 4/27/18, has this case been heard yet? Been almost 6 months.
Collector, occasional seller
dozens of rare, unpedigreed countermarks submitted within a short period of time by a couple submitters - seems like someone was asleep at the wheel
also seems like a poorly-thought-out caper for the same people to buy unmarked coins from Heritage and submit marked coins to NGC
Assuming all of the allegations are true. I don't think these are very smart criminals, way too much of a trail. Sounds like the scheme did net them a lot of money, so hopefully it is a big enough fraud that the feds get involved.
I live in Chicago, here the feds usually only get involved in white collar crime if it's over $1 million or federal money was involved.
This makes me curious about the mechanics of the warranties of NGC and PCGS. Hypothetically, say someone submits a countermarked coin with a declared value of $3,000, and then turns around and sells it at auction to a bona fide purchaser for $100,000, is the warranted value $100,000? Is the onus on the grading service to make sure the declared values are right?
I'm not sure but good question
Unless the proceeds of the fraud are frozen or seized, this type of layered fraud extends the time of prosecution due to the required connecting of the dots, so to speak. Peace Roy
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Interesting case! I'm surprised it took NGC this long to ID these as counterfeits. I would think that dozens of these showing up over a small period of time would raise a red flag...cause the same grader(s) probably reviewed all of these.
Woof, looks like the defendants are being charged with:
Racketeering,
Violation of the Hobby Protection Act,
Fraud,
Deceptive practices,
Breach of contract and;
Conspiracy.
Question: As I understand it, NGC determined a coin with counterfeit countermarks was genuine and then slabbed it as genuine. Now they are going after the folks who altered the coin that fooled them. It is lucky they were able to determine who altered the coin!
You're back!
The wheelchair is gone! He can walk!
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Welcome back @Insider2
My YouTube Channel
@asheland said: "The wheelchair is gone! He can walk!"
Yes, A HOLE did it and thanks to many of you also. Now, a "blackball" is more fitting.
???? You figured you'd just start posting again with no fanfare?
Welcome back. As I had said last week to some of the other parolees, you guys took one for the team. The disagree button is finally gone, as is its most frequent abuser! It is a big step forward.
@Insider2
Welcome Back!
@JBK said: "Welcome back. As I had said last week to some of the other parolees, you guys took one for the team. The disagree button is finally gone, as is its most frequent abuser! It is a big step forward."
Hitting a disagree w/o leaving a reason was LAME and added nothing to the forum at all. They did a good thing getting rid of it.
PS We have not heard the last from "he who shall not be named."
IMO, his "dormant alt" has already posted.
I think you are correct. Except that his involvement was almost always to hit the button and not actually post a comment. So, maybe we have "heard" the last from him.
I hope so
If NGC certifies the coin as something much more valuable, and they goofed, then they are on the hook for the value of an authentic one of its grade and quality. NGC would make a judgment on the wholesale value.
OTOH, if the submitted coin were lost by NGC before it was examined/graded then their loss would be closer to the declared value. The amount would again be determined by NGC, not to exceed the declared value.
This is the way PCGS's guarantee works. I think NGC's is similar.
Lance.
+1 in solidarity
Welcome back!
LOL, am I clairvoyant or what?
@Insider2 said: "We have not heard the last from "the crippled...(using his dormant alt)." Wink, Wink!
My understanding is that the guys ATS have made good on all of the coins out of this group that they've been able to locate.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake