I now own an exceptional group of toned Jefferson proofs. Formerly DS Gill collection.
bolivarshagnasty
Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
I happened upon this group a few years ago in the Toned Showcase Registry. Every few months I would be compelled to return and view, what to my eyes, was virtual eye candy. DS Gill had put several showcases together that included Proof Lincolns and Jeffersons. His eye for quality over quantity is why I continued to check in. I began to look for high grade spot free examples for myself, thinking that I might one day own a similar set. Trouble was, spot free killer toned examples didn't come along very often, and after a year and a half I had only three examples to show which met my standards. I learned that Mr. Gill was parting ways with his collections mid 2018, and was afforded the opportunity to choose from his best. As always, I try and limit my exposure to any group or series, so decided on a Box of Twenty of these beautiful Jeffersons. Minimum grade PR67. Digital album link below.
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Comments
Wow, very nice collection!
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Super
Wow, amazing, congratulations !!!
mes - mer -ize ........ just plain beautiful
https://photos.app.goo.gl/5q2J4K72kjrigRih9
Beautiful set! I have not yet got into the mid series wild toners but this impressive group has me looking a lot closer. Well done!
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Stunning. I love 'em!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Toned Jefferson's are Purdy..................but I already knew that, Congrats
Steve
Very nice!
Super Nice!!!
Wow,just wow!
Over the years I've seen my share, bought a few, in and out of holders. Eventually, I became quite skeptical upon seeing these in Anacs holders marked artificially toned....so... I stopped buying them. Than, at some time, PCGS stopped guaranteeing toned coins or was that just for copper coins? The nickel is 75% copper. I had a graded PCGS toner receive a questionable color from NGC. I've also had coins that would tone in the 2x2 cardboard holders from sitting the 2x2 box for years and they would receive AT no grades. So.....I really don't believe they or anyone else knows when a coin was naturally toned. I remember how a dealer had sent in a dozen or so toned proofs and only half came back graded and they all came from the same album. He showed me all the wares to his story. So.....I remain skeptical about such coins.
But yeah, the OP coins do look very nice.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Very nice.
Hoard the keys.
I really don't believe they or anyone else knows when a coin was naturally toned.
I agree.
Very nice set. Unique and unusual.
For me, Leo, it comes down to a matter of economics. If a coin doctor could create a beautiful example by artificial means, and then sell it for moon money, they wouldn't stop. The allure of easy money kicks in and the Doc will make more similarly toned examples. I'm not saying that there are not AT Jeffersons for sale on eBay and other venues. I'm saying the extremely nice stuff doesn't come along that often, therefore not being mass produced like we saw with the toned silver eagle market in recent years.
Whoever manages the Coinfacts pages has since inception, asked that extreme toner TrueViews be saved under there respective date and mint mark. If you want to get an idea of how infrequently PCGS sees exceptional Jefferson proof examples, go to proof Jeffersons and click on "other images" for a particular date. I believe all twenty of these examples are found there. Doing this will give you a sense of how few they grade and are worthy of being in Coinfacts.
It's easy to paint all toners with an AT brush, (see what I did there
) but I consider a lot of factors in my decision to buy a toned coin. Identifying toning patterns both AT and NT is a lengthy subject we'll do another time. Shag
@bolivarshagnasty are you saying there are more than 3 pictures for each coin of CoinFacts? Is this accessible in the app? I’ve been missing out if there are more than just three for each...
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Very nice collection, Mel. Have you given up on the wheat cents?
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
AR, Yes, there are many more white and toned examples under the blue link "other images".
Mike, As far as a date/mm run yes. Still love them and buy nice examples when they come along. Been following your rise back toward the top in the registry. Nice set!
Mel, I'm not cutting down your coins. I've only given my experience with toned coins over the years. Anyone is free to believe whatever they want.
But here's another problem with these proofs. How does one know they have stopped toning? I've also had coins turn darker on me over time. All toning starts somewhere and some take time in the adverse environment they're in. Coins don't tone overnight and whatever is on the coin likely hasn't stabilized. I had read in a book on the toning/corrosion of metals that it takes some 70 years for the cycle to complete. So......I guess this was another reason that caused me to be skeptical.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
If bright color was your goal, you have succeeded....along with quality strike and detail. Cheers, RickO
I have heard some here say that once removed from the bad environment, the toning will cease. I know first hand as you do that this is not always the case. What I have seen for myself is that once the toned coins are in a PCGS holder, further toning is not very common. In the dozen years I have been buying and selling toned coins, I have see only a few examples continue to tone in a PCGS holder.
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This ASE that developed target toning from being in a PCI holder has not changed in nearly 10 years in the PCGS holder.
I'm sure we have all speculated as to the phenomenom of the blue proof Jefferson's of 56 to 64, I have had dealers state it's how they are stored or displayed or it's the mint packaging, environment, heat, direct sun light, incandescent or florescent etc etc etc , But why do some tone and another sitting right next to it Not, in the same conditions , I don't think I have seen a blue SMS 65-67 however I have seen blue and other light toned Jeffs in later 68 and up mint packages, It is a bit of a mystery............Thought's
Steve
Very very nice coins. The blue toning appears to be more crisp/nicer on nickel rather than silver.
The '58 especially.
I have a few SMS nickels that have developed blue, gold and burgandy toning. They have positive eye appeal.
ALL trueviews for the date and mintmark are saved in coinfacts, not just toned examples, and they are saved automatically, not by request. So if all the trueviews are of toned coins it sound like they are fairly common. And since so many are weirdly blue and purple I would suspect some AT is going on. The argument of "why aren't there more" isn't really a good one as a) it's impossible to tell how many there are, and there may be many ungraded examples or graded without Trueviews, and b) it might not be as clear-cut as that. Maybe the producer ATs many different types of coins and since you are only looking at one type it doesn't seem like much. Maybe he limits how much he makes so that people will think they are NT. Maybe it's difficult to make it look right so even though he ATs a lot of pieces he only sends out a few for grading. The argument doesn't hold up as it's pure speculation.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Excellent looking coins and totally market acceptable.
That said, I'm in the camp that most brilliant white coins have been dipped and most toned coins have been 'helped' in some way.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
With any wildly toned modern US coins, the best course of action in my opinion is to start by assuming it's AT, since it really usually is nowadays, graded or not, and work from there. If you can find sufficient reason to believe that it isn't AT, then buy it. Otherwise don't, or buy it with the knowledge that it might be AT and that you have no proof that it isn't. People seem to have a habit of self-blinding themselves when it comes to their own coins. It's much better to be extremely critical of coins so that you really end up with the best of the best. I don't buy toned modern US coins at all because of this - I almost never see an example that I can confidently say is naturally toned.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
I find it a shame that this thread has digressed in to an AT/NT discussion. Of course I have seen this same discussion play out for the last 15 years I've been reading threads here. Always strong opinions on both sides.
@Rexford I see in your replies to this thread that you have a definitive opinion about modern toners. Did you read the first post in this thread? I stated that I shopped ebay and other venues for a year and a half and only found 3 examples that met my standards. That is not speculation. That is searching multiple times per week on numerous venues. That WILL give you an indication on how many are available at any given time. With an unlimited bank account, I could have purchased dozens of rare 09 SVDB's or 16-D Mercs during that same period. All you have provided is your opinion with no substantive evidence. While I'm well aware of a lot of shenanigans out there, I don't see how you can say they are ALL suspect. Have you not seen flat packs and plastic proof set holders with toners inside? If you have any evidence of what you believe, please post to this thread. I'm open minded enough to change my mind if proven wrong. If you are speculating on these things you believe, we'll just agree to disagree.
While I can't speak for eBay, I do see coins like this all over the place on Instagram. Even coins in flat packs or cases can be stored in certain environments purposefully or otherwise messed with (gassed etc). But my point isn't really to say that all these pieces are AT, but that they all are suspect (i.e. there is a possibility that they are not 100% entirely natural and that the toning did not come to be 100% by accident). With modern toners my philosophy is guilty until proven innocent, and since there usually isn't really a way to prove innocence (and I almost never see any that look quite right, including the ones in the pictures above), I must accept that if I purchase any there is a possibility that they are not natural. Therefore I just avoid them.
In regards to those photos, the 1961 cent looks super AT, as well as probably the 2005 (can those hard plastic proof sets be opened and then closed again?). The 1962s look ok. How come none of these wild modern toners ever have pull-away toning, and how come there are almost never "elevation chromatics"?
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Wow!
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@Rexford "In regards to those photos, the 1961 cent looks super AT, as well as probably the 2005 (can those hard plastic proof sets be opened and then closed again?). The 1962s look ok. How come none of these wild modern toners ever have pull-away toning, and how come there are almost never "elevation chromatics"?"
I'll address the last question first. Why do you not see pull away toning on all toned Morgans? I would assume conditions were different for 1000 dollar bags that were stored in various bank vaults around the country. I don't ever remember seeing pull away on classic commems that are monster toned 68's. Why would you expect the same toning on Moderns that are stored in plastic and film that you would see on Morgans stored in cloth bags sitting on the floor of a vault? It's not apples to apples.
And I have seen Moderns with elevation chromatics. Look in the crevices of the skirt on Liberty for greens while the rest of the coin is various shades of purple.
As for the 2005 Silver Proof Set, I would guess they could be taken apart and put back together. But I don't believe the doctors have the capability of creating the swirl on that Lincoln with greens and reds on a proof copper finish. When someone shows me evidence to the contrary I will reconsider. Mother nature and time seems to do a much more precise job than any of the AT'd hack jobs that I have seen. There was a group of silver state quarters with that 2005 silver set. I sold all of them except for the Kansas. PCGS graded and slabbed all.
Would love to see some proof that these Moderns can be replicated in a lab or otherwise. Post up if you have some evidence of this.
But no.....not totally blue. My theory is that when the US Mint top dogs eliminated the D and S mint marks, they also came down hard on the unions, management and workers to tighten up on protocol and procedures. The overheating of the planchets, an annealing process, caused the coins to over-tone was a problem and likely was corrected. And I'm sure someone else here could put all that process in better words than I did.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Personally, I akin artificially toning to spotting the Chinese fakes that we see on ebay and similar selling sites from time to time. There's a great flow of compassion out there from kind folks who feel compelled to forewarn unsuspecting collectors, many who are very naive about falsified coins. But Mel and I have been around the block a few times and have come to know which toning patterns are acceptable and which are not. But the message still needs to be said of the onslaught of sellers and graders who love taking your money.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Very nice!