Toned ASEs

dmwest · October 9, 2018 5:55PM

I’ve come across a lot of these on eBay and was wondering what the take on these are. A lot of these are straight graded by PCGS and so I assume that means natural toning, but if I’d seen these raw I would swear up and down they were AT. These things go for some serious money for being modern.

shinywhite · October 9, 2018 5:59PM

I've seen a few on ebay going for some very good money. One seller has 3 of the 1996 ASE's for sale and they are toned in a similar fashion. Not sure if the seller ever sold them or not.

U1chicago · October 9, 2018 6:56PM

Some of the NT material came from PCI holders (the 100% white ones where the holder caused the toning).
Quite a few of the non-PCI examples-in my opinion-are questionable and were created in the past few years (and passed by the graders in a period of looser standards).

Smudge · October 9, 2018 7:03PM

Anyone else wonder what PCI used in their holders to cause that toning?

thisistheshow · October 9, 2018 7:03PM

This has been a hot topic for a long time. There are a lot of good forum discussions you can go through to see different opinions.

Beware: Some might not have looked the way they do now when they were originally straight graded. There have been methods discussed of toning ASEs after they are slabbed.

dmwest · October 9, 2018 7:13PM

@thisistheshow said:
This has been a hot topic for a long time. There are a lot of good forum discussions you can go through to see different opinions.

Beware: Some might not have looked the way they do now when they were originally straight graded. There have been methods discussed of toning ASEs after they are slabbed.

I did not think about toning after slabbed. I would have thought tampering with the slab would be obvious....but I guess when you can get the kind of money they are getting anything is possible.

I’ll look for older discussions but to be honest the search tool here I find kind of lacking.

Smudge · October 9, 2018 7:18PM

Since something in the PCI holder caused that toning are they really NT?

U1chicago · October 9, 2018 7:22PM

@Smudge said:
Since something in the PCI holder caused that toning are they really NT?

It can be debated either way.
The fact that the label said 100% White suggests there was no intention of toning the coins, so that can be used as an argument to suggest it's NT (or at least acceptable).

david3142 · October 9, 2018 7:25PM

I have a few of these, one of them is still in the PCI holder. The OP coin looks like a PCI-toner to me and seems perfectly MA and NT.

There are a LOT of questionable ones out there in the market, even in PCGS holders. I think they have cracked down on these recently and NGC never slabbed them (although there are probably some exceptions).

thisistheshow · October 9, 2018 7:28PM

Over the years I have seen a lot of talk on these. Obviously there is a premium some will pay for toned ASEs in straight graded slabs. Apparently some know how to "gas" a slab to make it tone. Or something is placed on the ASE before submission so it tones after slabbing.

If you really want a NT ASE, you can look for one with a TruView already toned and know that the PCGS graders felt it to be NT. > @dmwest said:

@thisistheshow said:
This has been a hot topic for a long time. There are a lot of good forum discussions you can go through to see different opinions.

Beware: Some might not have looked the way they do now when they were originally straight graded. There have been methods discussed of toning ASEs after they are slabbed.

I did not think about toning after slabbed. I would have thought tampering with the slab would be obvious....but I guess when you can get the kind of money they are getting anything is possible.

I’ll look for older discussions but to be honest the search tool here I find kind of lacking.

dmwest · October 9, 2018 7:30PM

@thisistheshow said:

Over the years I have seen a lot of talk on these. Obviously there is a premium some will pay for toned ASEs in straight graded slabs. Apparently some know how to "gas" a slab to make it tone. Or something is placed on the ASE before submission so it tones after slabbing.

If you really want a NT ASE, you can look for one with a TruView already toned and know that the PCGS graders felt it to be NT. > @dmwest said:

@thisistheshow said:
This has been a hot topic for a long time. There are a lot of good forum discussions you can go through to see different opinions.

Beware: Some might not have looked the way they do now when they were originally straight graded. There have been methods discussed of toning ASEs after they are slabbed.

I see a lot of those where the seller has trueviews of the coin so as to say pcgs believes it to be NT.
Can someone tell me what PCI is? Is that a material or some other company?

U1chicago · October 9, 2018 7:31PM

@thisistheshow said:

Over the years I have seen a lot of talk on these. Obviously there is a premium some will pay for toned ASEs in straight graded slabs. Apparently some know how to "gas" a slab to make it tone. Or something is placed on the ASE before submission so it tones after slabbing.

If you really want a NT ASE, you can look for one with a TruView already toned and know that the PCGS graders felt it to be NT. > @dmwest said:

@thisistheshow said:
This has been a hot topic for a long time. There are a lot of good forum discussions you can go through to see different opinions.

Beware: Some might not have looked the way they do now when they were originally straight graded. There have been methods discussed of toning ASEs after they are slabbed.

I did not think about toning after slabbed. I would have thought tampering with the slab would be obvious....but I guess when you can get the kind of money they are getting anything is possible.

I’ll look for older discussions but to be honest the search tool here I find kind of lacking.

Note: even with TruViews one cannot be certain as some coins have been gassed and then sent in to be reholdered with a TruView.

david3142 · October 9, 2018 7:32PM

@dmwest said:

@thisistheshow said:

Over the years I have seen a lot of talk on these. Obviously there is a premium some will pay for toned ASEs in straight graded slabs. Apparently some know how to "gas" a slab to make it tone. Or something is placed on the ASE before submission so it tones after slabbing.

If you really want a NT ASE, you can look for one with a TruView already toned and know that the PCGS graders felt it to be NT. > @dmwest said:

@thisistheshow said:
This has been a hot topic for a long time. There are a lot of good forum discussions you can go through to see different opinions.

Beware: Some might not have looked the way they do now when they were originally straight graded. There have been methods discussed of toning ASEs after they are slabbed.

I see a lot of those where the seller has trueviews of the coin so as to say pcgs believes it to be NT.
Can someone tell me what PCI is? Is that a material or some other company?

PCI is a grading company. Here is a nice PCI ASE:

asheland · October 9, 2018 7:34PM

I bought mine raw this way:

thisistheshow · October 9, 2018 7:34PM

PCI was a grading service which I believe no longer exists. Something in their holders caused the ASEs to tone.

dmwest · October 9, 2018 7:36PM

@david3142 said:

PCI is a grading company. Here is a nice PCI ASE:

Thanks for that! There has to be something those things were made with that severely affects silver....interesting....there are some very cool toned coins out on eBay but I guess it’s tough to tell which ones are considered NT/AT.

asheland · October 9, 2018 7:37PM

My friend who’s shop it came into said it was in one of those snap together holders with the cardboard insert. I had to have it and after comparing it to straight graded examples I concluded it was NT.

I sent it in and it straight graded.

asheland · October 9, 2018 7:38PM

I’m probably an idiot for not cashing in, but I really like it!

dmwest · October 9, 2018 7:44PM

@asheland said:
I’m probably an idiot for not cashing in, but I really like it!

Did you happen to get trueviews when you had it graded?

Toningintheblood · October 9, 2018 7:50PM

If you look at 1998 ASE in PCI holder above, their slab had no gasket between paper label and coin. Over time, sulfur from paper label influenced toning in holder. Same goes for old style NGC holders with no seam gasket between label and coin.

asheland · October 9, 2018 7:54PM

@dmwest said:

@asheland said:
I’m probably an idiot for not cashing in, but I really like it!

Did you happen to get trueviews when you had it graded?

Unfortunately I did not. It was sent with some of my boss’s coins and you had to try view everything on the submission. So nothing got photographed.

asheland · October 9, 2018 7:56PM

@dmwest said:

@asheland said:
I’m probably an idiot for not cashing in, but I really like it!

Did you happen to get trueviews when you had it graded?

I have this one slab shot:

Zoins · October 9, 2018 11:00PM

@dmwest said:

@thisistheshow said:
This has been a hot topic for a long time. There are a lot of good forum discussions you can go through to see different opinions.

Beware: Some might not have looked the way they do now when they were originally straight graded. There have been methods discussed of toning ASEs after they are slabbed.

I did not think about toning after slabbed. I would have thought tampering with the slab would be obvious....but I guess when you can get the kind of money they are getting anything is possible.

I’ll look for older discussions but to be honest the search tool here I find kind of lacking.

Some techniques that have been used on coins after slabbing include gassing the slabs because they aren't air tight. Certification photos help mitigate this.

ricko · October 10, 2018 6:41AM

There have been many, many AT ASE's on ebay - I have not checked recently though. And yes, there is no doubt AT coins have been slabbed by the TPG's...After all, when done well, there really is no difference.... Cheers, RickO

Insider2 · October 10, 2018 8:14AM

@Smudge said:
Anyone else wonder what PCI used in their holders to cause that toning?

@thisistheshow said:
PCI was a grading service which I believe no longer exists. Something in their holders caused the ASEs to tone.

I worked for PCI. The member below has answered this question, Additionally, most of these coins are under graded. A clue is in the certificate number. If someone figures it out, I'll tell the "Rest-of-the-Story" (numismatic history) as PCI no longer exists.

@Toningintheblood said:
If you look at 1998 ASE in PCI holder above, their slab had no gasket between paper label and coin. Over time, sulfur from paper label influenced toning in holder. Same goes for old style NGC holders with no seam gasket between label and coin.

Smudge · October 10, 2018 8:16AM

Thanks.

Meltdown · October 10, 2018 8:18AM

photo IMG_6211.jpg
photo IMG_6210.jpg

AlexinPA · October 10, 2018 8:29AM

@Smudge said:
Anyone else wonder what PCI used in their holders to cause that toning?

I know there used to be varying amounts of sulfur in paper and cardboard.

AlexinPA · October 10, 2018 8:32AM

I saw some non-graded ASEs on Ebay and the funny thing was they all had the exact same tone pattern.

Insider2 · October 10, 2018 8:33AM

@AlexinPA said:

@Smudge said:
Anyone else wonder what PCI used in their holders to cause that toning?

I know there used to be varying amounts of sulfur in paper and cardboard.

You make a good point Alex.

BryceM · October 10, 2018 8:42AM

While I do love and appreciate nice toners, ASEs have always turned me off for three reasons. First, they're bullion coins and were never intended for circulation. I fail to see how or why anyone would consider a bullion coin to be a collectible.

Second, they're 0.999 pure, which makes them very soft, but also much more susceptible to environmental damage and corrosion. In other words, I don't think toning, once acquired, will be stable. Finally, the issue of milk spotting has never been solved. I can't tolerate the idea of paying a numismatic premium for something that frequently "goes south" without warning.

Zoins · October 10, 2018 9:08AM

I like toned silver eagle dollars because they are the modern equivalent of Morgan dollars to me. Silver dollars, not designed for circulation (at least in volume for Morgans) and wild toning.

jmlanzaf · October 10, 2018 9:14AM

@Smudge said:
Since something in the PCI holder caused that toning are they really NT?

Since something in the roll caused the toning...
Since something in the album caused the toning...
Since something in the air caused the toning...

All toning is due to exposure to an extraneous compound not naturally in the coin itself. This is why I think it is a fool's errand to try to draw too firm a line between "natural" and "artificial" toning.

If you put a coin in an old Whitman album, it will tone over years. If you put a coin in an old Whitman album and put it out in the sun in Arizona, it will tone in months. If you put the same coin in the same album and put it in your oven, it will tone in hours. Which one is "natural" and which one is "artificial"?

jmlanzaf · October 10, 2018 9:15AM

@BryceM said:
While I do love and appreciate nice toners, ASEs have always turned me off for three reasons. First, they're bullion coins and were never intended for circulation. I fail to see how or why anyone would consider a bullion coin to be a collectible.

Second, they're 0.999 pure, which makes them very soft, but also much more susceptible to environmental damage and corrosion. In other words, I don't think toning, once acquired, will be stable. Finally, the issue of milk spotting has never been solved. I can't tolerate the idea of paying a numismatic premium for something that frequently "goes south" without warning.

A bullion coin is not collectible? What about a medal? What about those fools who collect stamped bars?

You could argue that $20 gold coins in the 19th century were bullion coins. It was far too much money for normal commerce.

Insider2 · October 10, 2018 9:40AM

@BryceM said:
While I do love and appreciate nice toners, ASEs have always turned me off for three reasons. First, they're bullion coins and were never intended for circulation. I fail to see how or why anyone would consider a bullion coin to be a collectible.

Second, they're 0.999 pure, which makes them very soft, but also much more susceptible to environmental damage and corrosion. In other words, I don't think toning, once acquired, will be stable. Finally, the issue of milk spotting has never been solved. I can't tolerate the idea of paying a numismatic premium for something that frequently "goes south" without warning.

Well, no one can disagree with how you feel and IMO, there is no point trying to change your mind. Things are what they are.

AlexinPA · October 10, 2018 10:46AM

@Insider2 said:

@AlexinPA said:

@Smudge said:
Anyone else wonder what PCI used in their holders to cause that toning?

I know there used to be varying amounts of sulfur in paper and cardboard.

You make a good point Alex.

When I was in high school I worked part time in a paper mill. All sorts of chemicals in paper.

Insider2 · October 10, 2018 11:01AM

Thanks, I never would have guessed that in a million years!

I've made my own sheets of writing paper and post cards using macerated colorful stamps, paper, cotton rags and water.

Swampboy · October 10, 2018 11:28AM

@Insider2 said:
Thanks, I never would have guessed that in a million years!

I've made my own sheets of writing paper and post cards using macerated colorful stamps, paper, cotton rags and water.

Obviously you did a YouTube of this young fella

Paradisefound · October 10, 2018 11:34AM

What is the best worse thing I can do to AT my 2018 proof ASE?

MattTheRiley · October 10, 2018 11:42AM

Old PCI holders didn't just tone ASE's. Here's one that I crossed to PCGS. It was graded MS62 in the PCI slab.

Insider2 · October 10, 2018 11:45AM

Actually not. There was no Internet. I have some books on papermaking and the History of Paper. One beautiful book I have on Marbled Paper contains things I was unable to try at home due to limits of space at the time. Back then there were so many crafts I wished to try and so little time. Now, I have none left.

U1chicago · October 10, 2018 12:21PM

@Insider2 said:

@Smudge said:
Anyone else wonder what PCI used in their holders to cause that toning?

@thisistheshow said:
PCI was a grading service which I believe no longer exists. Something in their holders caused the ASEs to tone.

I worked for PCI. The member below has answered this question, Additionally, most of these coins are under graded. A clue is in the certificate number. If someone figures it out, I'll tell the "Rest-of-the-Story" (numismatic history) as PCI no longer exists.

@Toningintheblood said:
If you look at 1998 ASE in PCI holder above, their slab had no gasket between paper label and coin. Over time, sulfur from paper label influenced toning in holder. Same goes for old style NGC holders with no seam gasket between label and coin.

I’m interested in what the rest of the story is. I’m guessing it’s not as simple as including the higher grade in the cert number? For example, the Kennedy below has a “67” in the cert number; so could that be what you thought was the actual grade?

Insider2 · October 10, 2018 12:25PM

@U1chicago said:

@Insider2 said:

@Smudge said:
Anyone else wonder what PCI used in their holders to cause that toning?

@thisistheshow said:
PCI was a grading service which I believe no longer exists. Something in their holders caused the ASEs to tone.

I worked for PCI. The member below has answered this question, Additionally, most of these coins are under graded. A clue is in the certificate number. If someone figures it out, I'll tell the "Rest-of-the-Story" (numismatic history) as PCI no longer exists.

@Toningintheblood said:
If you look at 1998 ASE in PCI holder above, their slab had no gasket between paper label and coin. Over time, sulfur from paper label influenced toning in holder. Same goes for old style NGC holders with no seam gasket between label and coin.

I’m interested in what the rest of the story is. I’m guessing it’s not as simple as including the higher grade in the cert number? For example, the Kennedy below has a “67” in the cert number; so could that be what you thought was the actual grade?

Nope. But the clue is in the serial numbers and it only works on SE.

U1chicago · October 10, 2018 12:35PM

@Insider2 by serial number do you mean the 10 digit number or the 4 digit/letter code?

Do these Eagles have it (all 67s)
Q7...quality 67?

R4...really a 64?

BryceM · October 10, 2018 12:48PM

To clarify, I don't have any issue with people collecting ASEs or anything else. If we all looked at things the same way it would be pretty boring and we'd be stepping all over each other even more than we already are. If they float your boat, go for it!

In my world, they're not rare and the majority of the issues attain a numismatic premium only with toning. They've only been around for some 30+ years so in the context of classic US coins they're newborns. By itself that's no big deal (I collect plenty of moderns) but many of these have attained a degree of toning that is borderline environmental damage in a relatively quick time. Some of this is AT, some of it is the holder they lived in, and some of it is just secondary to natural processes but all of it seems a little "quick" when compared to 90% silver. I could be completely wrong, but 99.9% silver seems to be overly chemically reactive and a bad long-term bet to be "shelf stable."

They also seem to be the most popular playground for people trying to make a buck from pretty colors (not that classic US silver isn't a close second.)

jmlanzaf · October 10, 2018 12:55PM

@Paradisefound said:
What is the best worse thing I can do to AT my 2018 proof ASE?

Put it in the oven with a chunk of sulfur.

By the way, this was how they took care of bed bugs and other vermin back in my grandpappy's day. You closed up all the window, put a chunk of sulfur in the oven, turned it on and went away for a day. When you came home, you swept up all the dead bugs.

So, you can tone your coins and fumigate at the same time! Just make sure you take any coins you DON'T want toned with you.

Insider2 · October 10, 2018 12:55PM

The serial # is below the logo. I've already given away too many hints. One eagle-eye collector is going to figure it out one day.

jmlanzaf · October 10, 2018 12:59PM

Anyone ever try spraying this on their coins?

https://lowes.com/pd/BAYER-ADVANCED-Natria-24-fl-oz-Insect-Disease-and-Mite-Control/3173217

Insider2 · October 10, 2018 1:17PM

Never saw that one. Have you and what happened?

I have tried several dozen different off-the-shelf products from grocery and hardware stores to clean coins. There are some "miracle" products right in front of your nose in stores or even already in your house! There is a book about "secrets of the trade" that is more advanced using some dangerous stuff.

U1chicago · October 10, 2018 2:07PM

@Insider2 said:
The serial # is below the logo. I've already given away too many hints. One eagle-eye collector is going to figure it out one day.

Do the 3 that I posted have something in the serial number or was it not done for all Eagles?

jmlanzaf · October 10, 2018 2:43PM

@Insider2 said:
Never saw that one. Have you and what happened?

I have tried several dozen different off-the-shelf products from grocery and hardware stores to clean coins. There are some "miracle" products right in front of your nose in stores or even already in your house! There is a book about "secrets of the trade" that is more advanced using some dangerous stuff.

No. Despite my chemistry background, I try to limit my doctoring to ethical endeavors.

That said, this thread has inspired me totry an experiment. Lol

Toned ASEs

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