So Centsles has stopped or slowed down self grading and switched to ICG? They have sold more than 2000 ICG coins recently and have more than 300 listed. That must make them one of the larger clients right? It seems some favors were handed back with the ridiculous MS67+ grade above. That is unless NGC is under-grading by 2 and 1/2 grades these days.
At least GC does good images....That was a nice payday. Take your high end gem coins and get a two point upgrade at ICG...
How on earth did that grade 67+ at ICG? Talk about derailing the fine ICG thread! This makes them look like Accugrade all of a sudden!
{NGC 65* --> ICG 67}
You must have missed the rare 1844 eagle in an ICG AU55 holder (i.e. a $15k-$18k holder if accurately graded) back at Great Collections a few months back. It had obvious salt water damage and was previously encapsulated by PCGS as AU details and appeared at Heritage last year. Interestingly the coin sold for less in the ICG AU55 holder than it did the PCGS AU details holder.
@BUFFNIXX asked: "I wonder why ICG and ANACS have not changed their holder inserts which would grip the sides of the coin at three or four contact points like pcgs and ngc now have..."
@Wabbit2313 said:
So Centsles has stopped or slowed down self grading and switched to ICG? They have sold more than 2000 ICG coins recently and have more than 300 listed. That must make them one of the larger clients right? It seems some favors were handed back with the ridiculous MS67+ grade above. That is unless NGC is under-grading by 2 and 1/2 grades these days.
Great research job! AFAIK, we don't give away grades for favors; however, based on something that happened to me in the 1990's I suppose this may be done on occasion at every TPGS I worked for except INSAB where I was the finalizer. If universally true, if a coin was on the line, on occasion it was bumped over. I've never done it. However, one time in the 1990's while arguing with a finalizer and the owner of the company when a bump was given, I learned it is called "tossing the submitter an occasional bone." I don't see the slab # on our coin but IMO, it has a nicer look than the darker MS-67 above. As I wrote, I've NEVER graded a Bust half MS-67.
Now, let's assume our company believed the coin was under graded by NGC (65) and if I had seen/graded it raw or slabbed I stretched and graded it MS-66. I should have liked that result better! The fact that the coin sold for a low price indicates it is over graded as a 67+! Unfortunately, we all have seen examples of over graded coins from EVERY TPGS including the "Fly-by-nights."
@cameonut2011 said: "You must have missed the rare 1844 eagle in an ICG AU55 holder (i.e. a $15k-$18k holder if accurately graded) back at Great Collections a few months back. It had obvious salt water damage and was previously encapsulated by PCGS as AU details and appeared at Heritage last year. Interestingly the coin sold for less in the ICG AU55 holder than it did the PCGS AU details holder."
You are correct. I don't look at what coins sell at auctions. That's for the fanboy "experts" and actual bidders. Perhaps I should as the only way I monitor the output of the three other major TPGS's now is to look at their coins when I'm at a show.
Thankfully for all of us, each of the four major services guarantees the coins in their slabs.
Beats me. You are asking the wrong person! I've never seen it until you posted it. It looks like nothing has been updated since 2012. I will find out for you. Or better yet...CALL ICG and ask the ask our new office manager about it. That will get her to take a look and do an update.
As for the quarter, it was seen/authenticated by a Standing Liberty Quarter expert/author who said it was a 1916. At the time, I worked for NCS. After I was hired by ICG, the coin was sent in for review. In 2 seconds I determined it was a very worn 1917 Type 1. As you see, ICG honored the guarantee. Since 2012, I only know of two coins we had to buy back one was a silver dollar and the other a circulated and cleaned counterfeit Russian Rouble that I thought was genuine!
Thanks! I looked it up and...Gulp, I did grade the coin! I graded it MS-66 w/bump for color. LOL, how could I have forgotten this coin as this (66) is the highest grade I've ever assigned to a Capped Bust half. I'll stick by my grade. Looks like several others at ICG thought both me and NGC were too low. I graded at NGC at one time and understand a grade of 65 Star.
@Chessman said:
I'd still want the ICG MS67+ with all the club and coin show members I would impress by it! I'm sure that if ICG had made a mistake they would admit it, not sure what an MS67+ is really worth. Lots of coins now in PCGS and NGC slabs on their way to ICG to get the right grade, they are the real pros!!
Thanks for the compliment but IMO, the folks at EVERY major TPGS get the "right" grade 95% of the time. This particular coin proves how subjective grading can be on an individual coin basis. In one "infamous" Federal Trade Commission Case, several expert numismatists graded a coin from AU-58 to MS-65 and every expert was 100% correct! I testified at that trial. While on the stand I personally educated the judge as to the truth of that observable fact!
There are a few exceptions which don't mean much in the larger population of certified coins; but if there is a pattern of overgrading by any company their reputation suffers. And on real money grades the major services are and should be strict. The top graders at PCGS and NGC are probably in agreement over 70% of the time.
Many years ago I submitted to ICG. I considered their grading accurate and really like their holders. I do have a 20 coin box of ANACS and ICG coins - items it would not be worth grading costs to attempt cross or not worth much above BV. I will not cross coins if downgrade either. However if u do it’s your money / hobby.
The market has chosen NGC and PCGS over the other two. The number of coins on eBay by TPG reflects this. In eval NGC vs PCGS I refer to blue sheet. Since I choose nice coins I don’t discount coin bc of TPG. Since the coin is all there no reason I should.
Slabbing C/F's takes nothing. In view of what has happened in the past, if enough collectors/dealers ask for it, the top two may eventually slab fakes even though it will not pay for itself.
I've ignored ICG for at least the past 15 years... ever since I was offered an 1803 Bust Dollar graded by ICG as AU55, with the reverse wing feathers entirely re-engraved -- including the overall outline and the inner details of individual feathers!!
ABSOLUTLY, I'm with you pal! Those guys at ICG in Colorado 15 years ago sure were the worst authenticators and should be blasted all over this forum on hearsay and w/o proof as has been done recently. At least your attempt did not happen 35 years ago.
BTW, the next time some dealer tries to cross a reengraved coin in a top TPGS slab, AFTER I NOTIFY THE TPGS to make sure it is their genuine holder, I'll post a photo of just the alteration as many of these alterations are done on the same part of the coin. Example: Reengraved chainmail on a SL 25c. Now who could miss that you ask? Any long-time, respected and knowledgeable, professional who is inattentive.
PS I'll guarantee your business has not been missed.
This is why I would never trust ICG. Both came back from NGC as Details - Cleaned. Cracked them out and sent to PCGS. Details - Cleaned again. My coin dealer has an 1877 S $5.00 graded ICG EF 45. They have graded it VF - Cleaned.
@AlexinPA said:
This is why I would never trust ICG. Both came back from NGC as Details - Cleaned. Cracked them out and sent to PCGS. Details - Cleaned again. My coin dealer has an 1877 S $5.00 graded ICG EF 45. They have graded it VF - Cleaned.
Yup. Stick with PCGS and NGC. They've never straight graded and slabbed a cleaned coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@AlexinPA said: "This is why I would never trust ICG. Both came back from NGC as Details - Cleaned. Cracked them out and sent to PCGS. Details - Cleaned again. My coin dealer has an 1877 S $5.00 graded ICG EF 45. They have graded it VF - Cleaned."
LOL, Nice try. Why don't you image the same coin SIX MORE TIMES so you'll really be able to make a point! I'll bet your dealer has an ICG MS-65 that's only a VF too.
A few comments to remind others without a clue who may be "lurking.".
There is a thing called "market acceptability." I DON'T AGRE WITH IT AT ALL; however a large majority of vintage coins have problems of some kind. I should know. I'm almost always the first grader on a box and I leave the notes for the others to decide when something can go either way. I always favor "details" so the submitter can learn something.
We can post images of coins here for years and not run out. That's because examples exist of over graded, under graded coins, and altered coins from EVERY TPGS. Thankfully, I'm seeing fewer repaired, lasered, and chemically altered coins in holders this year!
Finally, NEVER send a coin to the top services in a second or third tier holder. Your chance at a cross is reduced significantly! Why should you see that the grading is similar. Look at the example above.
And finally, ICG and ANACS BELONG in the second tier. I cannot speak for ANACS but ICG is exactly where they wish to be.
PS Be sure to look for our advertisements. Oh, we rarely advertise - sorry; why screw up a good thing?
@Insider2 said: @AlexinPA said: "This is why I would never trust ICG. Both came back from NGC as Details - Cleaned. Cracked them out and sent to PCGS. Details - Cleaned again. My coin dealer has an 1877 S $5.00 graded ICG EF 45. They have graded it VF - Cleaned."
LOL, Nice try. Why don't you image the same coin SIX MORE TIMES so you'll really be able to make a point! I'll bet your dealer has an ICG MS-65 that's only a VF too.
A few comments to remind others without a clue who may be "lurking.".
There is a thing called "market acceptability." I DON'T AGRE WITH IT AT ALL; however a large majority of vintage coins have problems of some kind. I should know. I'm almost always the first grader on a box and I leave the notes for the others to decide when something can go either way. I always favor "details" so the submitter can learn something.
We can post images of coins here for years and not run out. That's because examples exist of over graded, under graded coins, and altered coins from EVERY TPGS. Thankfully, I'm seeing fewer repaired, lasered, and chemically altered coins in holders this year!
Finally, NEVER send a coin to the top services in a second or third tier holder. Your chance at a cross is reduced significantly! Why should you see that the grading is similar. Look at the example above.
And finally, ICG and ANACS BELONG in the second tier. I cannot speak for ANACS but ICG is exactly where they wish to be.
PS Be sure to look for our advertisements. Oh, we rarely advertise - sorry; why screw up a good thing?
I only imaged once. You are correct; I should guard against being too harsh and too quick to criticize. Apologies to all the ICG fans here. I'm not a millionaire and don't have thousands of dollars to spend on coins, I collect Carson City coins as a hobby and what I spent on these two set me back so there was a great amount of disappointment. I don't grade or evaluate coins; I leave that to the experts and I expect them to know their jobs. I have yet, after all these many years, to run into any problems with PCGS, NGC, or ANACS but I don't say they don't have problems. I expect the TPGS and their employees to be professionals and d a good, honest job for the money I pay them. Certainly there are mistakes but these mistakes hurt the consumer. Thanks for your reply.
Interesting thread. As I ponder grading and the various services it seems that there are a few gray zones that will forever produce confusion and squabbles.
One is the cleaned/acceptable decision. Some coins have been cleaned with sandpaper. Those are easy. Some have an almost invisible single wipe that would be easily overlooked/forgiven. The same grader may make a different decision on different days, let alone differences between TPGs. Some are balls, some are strikes, and some depend on who the umpire is rooting for, even if only subconsciously.
The next, of course, is the AU/BU split. We’ll never get to the bottom of this one. A huge percentage of coins in MS grades have at least some wear. I can easily see it on my PCGS MS66 CAC Peace dollars......... but wait, maybe that is cabinet wear or stacking friction..... LOL.
Finally, as has been said, it is utterly meaningless to produce anecdotal evidence of singular mistakes to implicate a service. Only a rigid statistical analysis would be meaningful, and then only if the graders never changed. Fortunately for us, on average, the market has a way of figuring this out for us.
@AlexinPA said: "I only imaged once. You are correct; I should guard against being too harsh and too quick to criticize. Apologies to all the ICG fans here."
Sorry, I thought I saw more than one image of the same slab.
I work at ICG now. I see coins out there that I agree with and ones I don't. I have the last word on authentication and my opinion is rarely challenged. That said there are probably four coins that went out as genuine in the last five years that I disagreed with and was overruled. I've been examining coins daily for almost fifty years with a stereomicroscope and counterfeits are getting downright scary. Authentications that took 2 seconds are now taking several minutes, many much longer. I am not the grading finalizer. Very often we disagree as I'm a little older and more conservative.
I don't know who or when that coin was graded. I've given one possible reason your coin was rejected. Nevertheless,IT MAY BE CLEANED and it was not market acceptable to the other services! Any mistakes made by ANY TPGS hurts the consumer.
We learn from mistakes. Since this is a discussion about ICG and ANACS, your post would have been more tolerable to me if you had posted an image of your slab and posted a close up of the coin's surface so we could see the cleaning. An image of the reverse should have also been posted as I'll bet that side is an AU-58. The coin's color and relief looks perfectly OK to me as graded; but you and everyone else got to examine the actual coin!"
Send it in for a review. We call many folks before returning their coins and write notes (just as I'm doing now) because an educated collector is our best customer!
@AlexinPA said:
This is why I would never trust ICG. Both came back from NGC as Details - Cleaned. Cracked them out and sent to PCGS. Details - Cleaned again. My coin dealer has an 1877 S $5.00 graded ICG EF 45. They have graded it VF - Cleaned.
Yup. Stick with PCGS and NGC. They've never straight graded and slabbed a cleaned coin.
Really; I would love to see your data on that!!! I do hope that was sarcasm...
I actually like all 4 of the TPG's discussed here and use each for specialized reasons- and as far as the "top 2" and mistakes, I could post some images that should make skin crawl, but that isn't the intent of this post.
My first post in these forums! I wanted to comment that I appreciated the discussion by all and, especially, the honest opinions of Insider2. I consider myself a "not quite there yet" advanced collector. I have coins from all 4 of the major services and really like the coins I own that are in the ICG holders. However, if I were to submit coins now then I would have to submit them to PCGS due to Insider's "gold ring" analogy used earlier. Submitting to ICG right now just eliminates any chance of getting a CAC sticker. So PCGS has that added value even if the coin hasn't been sent to CAC it still has the chance and will get a better price on that fact alone...if that makes sense.
@Insider2 said: @AlexinPA said: "I only imaged once. You are correct; I should guard against being too harsh and too quick to criticize. Apologies to all the ICG fans here."
Sorry, I thought I saw more than one image of the same slab.
I work at ICG now. I see coins out there that I agree with and ones I don't. I have the last word on authentication and my opinion is rarely challenged. That said there are probably four coins that went out as genuine in the last five years that I disagreed with and was overruled. I've been examining coins daily for almost fifty years with a stereomicroscope and counterfeits are getting downright scary. Authentications that took 2 seconds are now taking several minutes, many much longer. I am not the grading finalizer. Very often we disagree as I'm a little older and more conservative.
I don't know who or when that coin was graded. I've given one possible reason your coin was rejected. Nevertheless,IT MAY BE CLEANED and it was not market acceptable to the other services! Any mistakes made by ANY TPGS hurts the consumer.
We learn from mistakes. Since this is a discussion about ICG and ANACS, your post would have been more tolerable to me if you had posted an image of your slab and posted a close up of the coin's surface so we could see the cleaning. An image of the reverse should have also been posted as I'll bet that side is an AU-58. The coin's color and relief looks perfectly OK to me as graded; but you and everyone else got to examine the actual coin!"
Send it in for a review. We call many folks before returning their coins and write notes (just as I'm doing now) because an educated collector is our best customer!
You were right again; thought I posted two but posted the 1875 twice.
IMHO, the '74 is severely under-graded and not cleaned. That coin has our new label so **let's please see the ID numbers on the reverse of each coin slab. I don't "net grade" so I'm very curious.
@AlexinPA said:
This is why I would never trust ICG. Both came back from NGC as Details - Cleaned. Cracked them out and sent to PCGS. Details - Cleaned again. My coin dealer has an 1877 S $5.00 graded ICG EF 45. They have graded it VF - Cleaned.
Yup. Stick with PCGS and NGC. They've never straight graded and slabbed a cleaned coin.
Really; I would love to see your data on that!!! I do hope that was sarcasm...
Of course I was being sarcastic. Didn't you see the winky emoji?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Insider2: I am very sorry but I did not save the reverse pictures. I sent both in to NGC first and when they came back I cracked them out and sent to PCGS hoping for the best but they came back the same. Cleaned - AU Details & Cleaned - XF Details. That picture was the dealers and the coin in hand is brighter. Sorry about that.
Well, you did the right thing for sure. If you still have the coins, why not send both coins back for review. Well pay the return postage and send you some free grading coupons to cover your postage to us. You can give them away or destroy them. If you want them slabbed again we'll do it for free if they straight but the original grade is not guaranteed. As I wrote. The XF looks very under graded.
One thing I will say for sure, if one of the top four TPGS's "details" a coin for cleaning or anything else when it is "raw" - it probably will not "straight grade" at another either. I've seen it happen on about three occasions in the last ten years.
Comments
That coin had to have been graded 67+ in the last month or so as it is definitely the ex-Landmark NGC MS-65* from late August on GC
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/601518/1832-Capped-Bust-Half-Dollar-NGC-MS-65-226-152-133-Toned
At least GC does good images....That was a nice payday. Take your high end gem coins and get a two point upgrade at ICG...
My YouTube Channel
How on earth did that grade 67+ at ICG? Talk about derailing the fine ICG thread! This makes them look like Accugrade all of a sudden!
.
.
So Centsles has stopped or slowed down self grading and switched to ICG? They have sold more than 2000 ICG coins recently and have more than 300 listed. That must make them one of the larger clients right? It seems some favors were handed back with the ridiculous MS67+ grade above. That is unless NGC is under-grading by 2 and 1/2 grades these days.
Is it just me or have Centsle's photos actually become worse over time?
You must have missed the rare 1844 eagle in an ICG AU55 holder (i.e. a $15k-$18k holder if accurately graded) back at Great Collections a few months back. It had obvious salt water damage and was previously encapsulated by PCGS as AU details and appeared at Heritage last year. Interestingly the coin sold for less in the ICG AU55 holder than it did the PCGS AU details holder.
@BUFFNIXX asked: "I wonder why ICG and ANACS have not changed their holder inserts which would grip the sides of the coin at three or four contact points like pcgs and ngc now have..."
LOL, that's easy...
Costs lots of M O N E Y
Great research job! AFAIK, we don't give away grades for favors; however, based on something that happened to me in the 1990's I suppose this may be done on occasion at every TPGS I worked for except INSAB where I was the finalizer. If universally true, if a coin was on the line, on occasion it was bumped over. I've never done it. However, one time in the 1990's while arguing with a finalizer and the owner of the company when a bump was given, I learned it is called "tossing the submitter an occasional bone." I don't see the slab # on our coin but IMO, it has a nicer look than the darker MS-67 above. As I wrote, I've NEVER graded a Bust half MS-67.
Now, let's assume our company believed the coin was under graded by NGC (65) and if I had seen/graded it raw or slabbed I stretched and graded it MS-66. I should have liked that result better! The fact that the coin sold for a low price indicates it is over graded as a 67+! Unfortunately, we all have seen examples of over graded coins from EVERY TPGS including the "Fly-by-nights."
@cameonut2011 said: "You must have missed the rare 1844 eagle in an ICG AU55 holder (i.e. a $15k-$18k holder if accurately graded) back at Great Collections a few months back. It had obvious salt water damage and was previously encapsulated by PCGS as AU details and appeared at Heritage last year. Interestingly the coin sold for less in the ICG AU55 holder than it did the PCGS AU details holder."
You are correct. I don't look at what coins sell at auctions. That's for the fanboy "experts" and actual bidders. Perhaps I should as the only way I monitor the output of the three other major TPGS's now is to look at their coins when I'm at a show.
Thankfully for all of us, each of the four major services guarantees the coins in their slabs.
Speaking of which, how accurate and up to date is this page? http://www.icgcoin.com/about/guarantee/guarantee-usage-report/
It's meant as a serious inquiry.
Beats me. You are asking the wrong person! I've never seen it until you posted it. It looks like nothing has been updated since 2012. I will find out for you. Or better yet...CALL ICG and ask the ask our new office manager about it. That will get her to take a look and do an update.
As for the quarter, it was seen/authenticated by a Standing Liberty Quarter expert/author who said it was a 1916. At the time, I worked for NCS. After I was hired by ICG, the coin was sent in for review. In 2 seconds I determined it was a very worn 1917 Type 1. As you see, ICG honored the guarantee. Since 2012, I only know of two coins we had to buy back one was a silver dollar and the other a circulated and cleaned counterfeit Russian Rouble that I thought was genuine!
Here is the slab Skip.
.
@Wabbit23
My post about "...a circulated and cleaned counterfeit Russian Rouble that I thought was genuine is NOT FUNNY!
Thanks! I looked it up and...Gulp, I did grade the coin! I graded it MS-66 w/bump for color. LOL, how could I have forgotten this coin as this (66) is the highest grade I've ever assigned to a Capped Bust half. I'll stick by my grade. Looks like several others at ICG thought both me and NGC were too low. I graded at NGC at one time and understand a grade of 65 Star.
Thanks for the compliment but IMO, the folks at EVERY major TPGS get the "right" grade 95% of the time. This particular coin proves how subjective grading can be on an individual coin basis. In one "infamous" Federal Trade Commission Case, several expert numismatists graded a coin from AU-58 to MS-65 and every expert was 100% correct! I testified at that trial. While on the stand I personally educated the judge as to the truth of that observable fact!
There are a few exceptions which don't mean much in the larger population of certified coins; but if there is a pattern of overgrading by any company their reputation suffers. And on real money grades the major services are and should be strict. The top graders at PCGS and NGC are probably in agreement over 70% of the time.
Many years ago I submitted to ICG. I considered their grading accurate and really like their holders. I do have a 20 coin box of ANACS and ICG coins - items it would not be worth grading costs to attempt cross or not worth much above BV. I will not cross coins if downgrade either. However if u do it’s your money / hobby.
The market has chosen NGC and PCGS over the other two. The number of coins on eBay by TPG reflects this. In eval NGC vs PCGS I refer to blue sheet. Since I choose nice coins I don’t discount coin bc of TPG. Since the coin is all there no reason I should.
Slabbing C/F's takes nothing. In view of what has happened in the past, if enough collectors/dealers ask for it, the top two may eventually slab fakes even though it will not pay for itself.
You do mean on purpose, correct?
I've ignored ICG for at least the past 15 years... ever since I was offered an 1803 Bust Dollar graded by ICG as AU55, with the reverse wing feathers entirely re-engraved -- including the overall outline and the inner details of individual feathers!!
ABSOLUTLY, I'm with you pal! Those guys at ICG in Colorado 15 years ago sure were the worst authenticators and should be blasted all over this forum on hearsay and w/o proof as has been done recently. At least your attempt did not happen 35 years ago.
BTW, the next time some dealer tries to cross a reengraved coin in a top TPGS slab, AFTER I NOTIFY THE TPGS to make sure it is their genuine holder, I'll post a photo of just the alteration as many of these alterations are done on the same part of the coin. Example: Reengraved chainmail on a SL 25c. Now who could miss that you ask? Any long-time, respected and knowledgeable, professional who is inattentive.
PS I'll guarantee your business has not been missed.
This is why I would never trust ICG. Both came back from NGC as Details - Cleaned. Cracked them out and sent to PCGS. Details - Cleaned again. My coin dealer has an 1877 S $5.00 graded ICG EF 45. They have graded it VF - Cleaned.
Yup. Stick with PCGS and NGC. They've never straight graded and slabbed a cleaned coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@AlexinPA said: "This is why I would never trust ICG. Both came back from NGC as Details - Cleaned. Cracked them out and sent to PCGS. Details - Cleaned again. My coin dealer has an 1877 S $5.00 graded ICG EF 45. They have graded it VF - Cleaned."
LOL, Nice try. Why don't you image the same coin SIX MORE TIMES so you'll really be able to make a point! I'll bet your dealer has an ICG MS-65 that's only a VF too.
A few comments to remind others without a clue who may be "lurking.".
There is a thing called "market acceptability." I DON'T AGRE WITH IT AT ALL; however a large majority of vintage coins have problems of some kind. I should know. I'm almost always the first grader on a box and I leave the notes for the others to decide when something can go either way. I always favor "details" so the submitter can learn something.
We can post images of coins here for years and not run out. That's because examples exist of over graded, under graded coins, and altered coins from EVERY TPGS. Thankfully, I'm seeing fewer repaired, lasered, and chemically altered coins in holders this year!
Finally, NEVER send a coin to the top services in a second or third tier holder. Your chance at a cross is reduced significantly! Why should you see that the grading is similar. Look at the example above.
And finally, ICG and ANACS BELONG in the second tier. I cannot speak for ANACS but ICG is exactly where they wish to be.
PS Be sure to look for our advertisements. Oh, we rarely advertise - sorry; why screw up a good thing?
I only imaged once. You are correct; I should guard against being too harsh and too quick to criticize. Apologies to all the ICG fans here. I'm not a millionaire and don't have thousands of dollars to spend on coins, I collect Carson City coins as a hobby and what I spent on these two set me back so there was a great amount of disappointment. I don't grade or evaluate coins; I leave that to the experts and I expect them to know their jobs. I have yet, after all these many years, to run into any problems with PCGS, NGC, or ANACS but I don't say they don't have problems. I expect the TPGS and their employees to be professionals and d a good, honest job for the money I pay them. Certainly there are mistakes but these mistakes hurt the consumer. Thanks for your reply.
Interesting thread. As I ponder grading and the various services it seems that there are a few gray zones that will forever produce confusion and squabbles.
One is the cleaned/acceptable decision. Some coins have been cleaned with sandpaper. Those are easy. Some have an almost invisible single wipe that would be easily overlooked/forgiven. The same grader may make a different decision on different days, let alone differences between TPGs. Some are balls, some are strikes, and some depend on who the umpire is rooting for, even if only subconsciously.
The next, of course, is the AU/BU split. We’ll never get to the bottom of this one. A huge percentage of coins in MS grades have at least some wear. I can easily see it on my PCGS MS66 CAC Peace dollars......... but wait, maybe that is cabinet wear or stacking friction..... LOL.
Finally, as has been said, it is utterly meaningless to produce anecdotal evidence of singular mistakes to implicate a service. Only a rigid statistical analysis would be meaningful, and then only if the graders never changed. Fortunately for us, on average, the market has a way of figuring this out for us.
@AlexinPA said: "I only imaged once. You are correct; I should guard against being too harsh and too quick to criticize. Apologies to all the ICG fans here."
Sorry, I thought I saw more than one image of the same slab.
I work at ICG now. I see coins out there that I agree with and ones I don't. I have the last word on authentication and my opinion is rarely challenged. That said there are probably four coins that went out as genuine in the last five years that I disagreed with and was overruled. I've been examining coins daily for almost fifty years with a stereomicroscope and counterfeits are getting downright scary. Authentications that took 2 seconds are now taking several minutes, many much longer. I am not the grading finalizer. Very often we disagree as I'm a little older and more conservative.
I don't know who or when that coin was graded. I've given one possible reason your coin was rejected. Nevertheless,IT MAY BE CLEANED and it was not market acceptable to the other services! Any mistakes made by ANY TPGS hurts the consumer.
We learn from mistakes. Since this is a discussion about ICG and ANACS, your post would have been more tolerable to me if you had posted an image of your slab and posted a close up of the coin's surface so we could see the cleaning. An image of the reverse should have also been posted as I'll bet that side is an AU-58. The coin's color and relief looks perfectly OK to me as graded; but you and everyone else got to examine the actual coin!"
Send it in for a review. We call many folks before returning their coins and write notes (just as I'm doing now) because an educated collector is our best customer!
Really; I would love to see your data on that!!! I do hope that was sarcasm...
I actually like all 4 of the TPG's discussed here and use each for specialized reasons- and as far as the "top 2" and mistakes, I could post some images that should make skin crawl, but that isn't the intent of this post.
This is one of my favorites in the collection:
My first post in these forums!
I wanted to comment that I appreciated the discussion by all and, especially, the honest opinions of Insider2. I consider myself a "not quite there yet" advanced collector. I have coins from all 4 of the major services and really like the coins I own that are in the ICG holders. However, if I were to submit coins now then I would have to submit them to PCGS due to Insider's "gold ring" analogy used earlier. Submitting to ICG right now just eliminates any chance of getting a CAC sticker. So PCGS has that added value even if the coin hasn't been sent to CAC it still has the chance and will get a better price on that fact alone...if that makes sense.
As for my "Gold Ring" TPGS comment - IMHO, the only things they have over the other Top ATS are:
Here is the second one. Thanks for letting me blow off steam and thanks for the valuable info.
@AlexinPA posted this image:
IMHO, the '74 is severely under-graded and not cleaned.
That coin has our new label so **let's please see the ID numbers on the reverse of each coin slab. I don't "net grade" so I'm very curious.
Of course I was being sarcastic. Didn't you see the winky emoji?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Insider2: I am very sorry but I did not save the reverse pictures. I sent both in to NGC first and when they came back I cracked them out and sent to PCGS hoping for the best but they came back the same. Cleaned - AU Details & Cleaned - XF Details. That picture was the dealers and the coin in hand is brighter. Sorry about that.
Well, you did the right thing for sure. If you still have the coins, why not send both coins back for review. Well pay the return postage and send you some free grading coupons to cover your postage to us. You can give them away or destroy them. If you want them slabbed again we'll do it for free if they straight but the original grade is not guaranteed. As I wrote. The XF looks very under graded.
One thing I will say for sure, if one of the top four TPGS's "details" a coin for cleaning or anything else when it is "raw" - it probably will not "straight grade" at another either. I've seen it happen on about three occasions in the last ten years.
@chesterb Welcome to the forums!
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