Is this coin original or not?
Insider2
Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
You are one of the experts on the forum and a new member sends you a PM with a 12X micrograph of a small area of his coin for your opinion.
Is this coin original or not?
This is a private poll: no-one will see what you voted for.
1
Comments
Image coming!!! One day I'll figure this posting stuff out!!!
Who's on first?
I want a picture!!!
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To me it looks like haze, possibly from a pvc flip. It doesn't stand out as damage.
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You tell him that you need to see the rest of the coin, in person, not in a photo.
You tell him based on that photo you tell anything!!!
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Remember, each of you is "go-to guy/girl" around here. This is a private poll so take a guess.
Well, if you're NOT used to looking at coins bathed in yellow light, and magnified to the size of a serving platter, then doing it just this once qualifies as "guessing".
Original as in "Originally made in a US Mint facility?" or original as in "Does it have original surfaces?"
I'm stuck on authenticity. There are a couple of concerning findings here but I'm no expert and I'm interested in what everyone else has to say.
I see learning about coins is very humorous. That's OK as we are here to have fun.
If there are not obvious hairlines - and scans often do not show hairlines, then the coin may have been dipped (cleaned), but dipping qualifies for a TGP holder, while excessive hairlines usually do not. As to the whether the coin is genuine or not, well that would depend on the diagnostics, which someone like Insider and others are very adept at.
If the halos around the stars and letters are the question I've seen differing opinions. I lean towards it being the tell-tale sign of a dipped coin.
The halos around the stars and E that give way to what seems to be hazy fields give me pause, as lightly cleaned or rubbed coins can look like that, but I'd have to look at it in decent light to be sure.
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I start a poll asking other posters opinions.
Clearly you're fishing for something here. Perhaps you're trying to point out the halos around the devices which could indicate a cleaning, wipe, polishing, or wear that did not contact the original surfaces in protected areas. They can sometimes also be seen in areas where more metal flow happened during the striking process (work hardening). Perhaps you're trying to point out crude dentils and raised blobs on the devices which could indicate a counterfeit coin.
If pressed to make a call, the right answer is always, "Please let me see all 3 sides of the coin." It's easy to get tunnel vision and lose sight of the forest in all the trees. A more conventional photo of the entire coin with correct color balance and lighting technique to assist in evaluating luster would be a nice place to start.
I'm not really sure what the point of these polls with single images. The first thing almost any responsible party would do is ask for images at different angles showing more of the coin.
The poll with a single photo is done so no member regardless of their skill level will be embarrassed by an incorrect guess. The stuff I'm posting is Coin Authentication/Grading Nursery School. Nevertheless, I think some members appreciate it.
@dave700x said: "If the halos around the stars and letters are the question I've seen differing opinions. I lean towards it being the tell-tale sign of a dipped coin."
"Opinions" are like you know what. Some are better than others.
I confess to not having a clue about what the younger guys are telling everyone anymore. I have not taught a Summer Seminar in a long time. Perhaps that is the reason you are reading different things.
The "Halo Effect" was seen, named, and described decades ago by someone here
who shall not be mentioned. It results from ONLY one thing: Something is done to the surface of a coin that does not reach into the area of a coin's surface next to its relief. This can be either a mechanical or chemical alteration. It does NOT result from a dip as the fluid reaches all parts of the coin. However, when a liquid is put on a rag and dragged across the surface it will often not get into the recess and will cause a "halo."
@messydesk said: "The halos around the stars and E that give way to what seems to be hazy fields give me pause, as lightly cleaned or rubbed coins can look like that, but I'd have to look at it in decent light to be sure."
Messy has the correct answer.
@BryceM said: "Clearly you're fishing for something here. Perhaps you're trying to point out the halos around the devices which could indicate a cleaning, wipe, polishing, or wear that did not contact the original surfaces in protected areas."
Bryce does also.
@BryceM continued: "They can sometimes also be seen in areas where more metal flow happened during the striking process (work hardening)."
What this member has described is NOT the same characteristic. It does not EVER look the same, is caused by something different and has a different name. It is not due to "pull-away" toning either.
I think Bryce is referring to this characteristic:
Basically, yes, but I'm leery of saying NEVER. Around the rim, metal flow will be in one direction, away from the center. Closer to the center of a coin, metal flow may be radial and may look more like a generic halo. No, I don't have a photo of this.
I'm also of the opinion that machining oils and other planchet contaminants can render certain parts of a coin's surface more reactive than others. That can do funny things sometimes.
I like to give it to them how I see it, I know it can be had at times to tell a new collector they got the pip. All we can do is tell them what we think and they need to do the rest. All they can do is grow in to expert collectors like you me and the others here.
Coin looks cleaned but will need better pic.
Hoard the keys.
It just should not be confused with the original definition of "halo effect."
PS I have photos of all types of metal flow including curving around the relief. I saw a beauty today but the coin was scratched so I did not image it. I'll try to find it again.
Doesn't matter what the image looks like. The answer is going to be the same
Radically curved metal flow on Capped Bust 50c:
Could be an original AU coin. Halos around devices could just be from light circulation. Would need to see the rest.
Collector, occasional seller
Light circulation with mint luster remaining next to the relief and disappearing out in the unprotected field is not the same and looks nothing like the unnatural "halo effect" I described above.
Given the info we have and required to make a decision, the halos around the stars concern me.
The first thing I would say is to adjust the white balance on his camera. I don't have a good sense of the true color of this piece... it looks yellow to me. The haze on the image shown could be innocuous, or evidence of an old dip.... I'd have to see the coin in hand to evaluate it.
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Sorry, what I wish folks to see is plainly visible. I t is the florescent light I use.
@Insider2 Thank you very much for this post. I am learning alot from you guys and want you to know I appreciate it.
I would like to see a photo of this, as I am not sure what this ( lightly circulated AU) would look like under magnification.
This is close: Very light circulation:
This is lightly buffed:
I'd say Not Original as in Fake.
The dentils show a clear toenail tag on the bottom indicating they were scrapped out or machined and is not from a press. There are also buff marks on the top leg of the E that are in line with the buffed lines on the dentils in line with the lines on the E.
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In your A ( top )picture posted at 7:50 PM you can clearly see metal migration ie tiny tic marks that is common from high pressure punch press and indicates the coin has not been cleaned as these tend to disappear easily under even the gentlest cleaning, whereas the light scratch marks on pic B is clear indicators of light cleaning. By the way, very good photos indicating problems and I think this is on of the best and most informative threads I've been a party to.
Besides the undesirable circumstance of the coin sitting in an unflushed toilet bowl for an extended period of time, it could be original.
@Insider2 ...have you ever taken a non-microscopic-section-of-a-photo on any of these coins?,,,and if so, can you post one of the morgan dollar please...looks like somebody gambled wrong on dipping out black tarnish...luster burnt out before the color did around the stars...but thats just a guess till a full mugshot gets played and its your hand
Don't have the ability to take an image of more than 60% of a large coin w/o bothering someone in the imaging department. Also, if I reduced the power of the OP 80% would claim it does not have an altered surface.
Additionally, anyone who believes any coin I posted in this thread is a counterfeit is incorrect. If you have not studied coins at very stupid powers of magnification before, almost everything will look suspicious.
Consider this. If we pick out a constellation in the sky and ask how many stars are in it, the fellow with 20/20 vision will say one thing. The fellow with 7X50 binoculars will say something else. The fellow at the observatory will have an even extremely different number.
Now consider a coin. Coins are graded by the naked eye and sometimes with a 5X to 7X hand lens. Most TPGS employees don't have the time or luxury to actually study them closely. You don't need a 10X or 16X hand lens for grading! With two eyes and 4.5X scope not much is missed because you see the entire side of the coin in one view. When I look at a coin, I want to see everything there is to see so I can write notes to the finalizer. He is the person who is going to say what is market acceptance.
Some coins I "detail" are straight graded. I can count on one hand the number of coins I straight grade in a year that are "detailed" for some reason. That's because I see more than the next grader.
What I'm trying to do with many of my posts is to let the less experienced folks see different characteristics on coins closer than they may have before. Over time they should eventually recognize things I post using just their eyes, low magnification, or my crappy, unbalanced, yellow images of silver coins.
You just described yourself perfectly.....other than you being a maniacal stalker, blitzDUD
Almost looks whizzed.
Hoard the keys.
Idk!
I find these posts interesting and often informative. I enjoy them and consider them to be a valuable part of our forum. @Insider2 , please continue with these instructional contributions. Cheers, RickO
A white balanced version👇of the OP’s first image for reference & observation...
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
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@Type2 said: "Almost looks whizzed."
In an attempt to be more precise "almost" does not apply to "whizzing." Whizzing describes a particular characteristic (raised metal on the relief) due to a mechanical treatment. It is either there (whizzed) or not there. Neither of these coins is remotely close to being whizzed.
@Stuart provided a white balanced version.
THANKS! Very nice.
It still looks like pvc residue...
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@asheland said: "It still looks like pvc residue..."
Many coins with an A/S can look like they have a PVC coating. That's all I'll say.