Is There a Market for 1907 $20 HR "Omega" Counterfeits?
BustHalfBrian
Posts: 4,192 ✭✭✭✭
Hi all. I recently purchased an 07 HR $20 that turned out to be an Omega. Now I wish to dispose of it, but I'm not sure where the buyers are, or if there are any at all. It's my understanding that ICG holders these counterfeits, but does that mean it's ok to sell them on eBay? Or anywhere else for that matter? I don't want to deceive anyone, but I do want to sell it to get some of the $ back.
Any advice?
Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist based in SoCal.
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You can return it to where it came from. It is illegal to sell U.S. counterfeits. A simple threat to call the Feds is usually enough to get anyone to refund your money unless they are out of the country.
You will have a hard time selling them on ebay. While people fo but them, they do it generally sell for anything near what a real one sells for.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Omega HR Saints contain the same amount of gold as a real Saint (0.9675 oz) and trade within the collecting community for a premium over melt value although not nearly as much as a real HR Saint. Many in the coin hobby have counterfeit US coins as part of their collections and to study for educational purposes. The Secret Service doesn't care if you have a counterfeit coin in your collection as long as you aren't trying to sell it as a real coin in an attempt to defraud another person.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I know that there is a collector market for this thing, but I wish there wasn't. Rewarding counterfeiters with prices that go beyond the melt value and the cost of making them only encourages bad behavior. At the shows I've heard numbers batted around that exceeded $3,000.
As one of my father's friends said when he heard that some people eat rattlesnake meat, "They need'ent fix none for me."
You can try on the BST and see if you get any bites. Just let them know it's a fake.
Hoard the keys.
If you were to take it to a bigger show like the upcoming Baltimore, I'm fairly certain you could get 2500 for it, possibly 3000. I hadn't heard there was a grading service that would slab these, I'm LOL at this, what do they put on the holder 'Authentic Counterfeit'? They might as well slab other fakes like 1916-D Mercury 'Added D Variety'
Your biggest problem is an ethical one in that once you sell it you have no control over where and how it gets sold next. Do you want to be responsible for putting someone else in the position you find yourself in? There's no guarantee it won't get sold at a small show or more likely dumped into a local auction to a new victim.
Return it for refund to seller.
Last one I sold (last year) was in the low $2,000 range
It's unclear whether you thought you were buying a real coin, but I will assume that is the case. As others have said, I would try to return the coin for a refund. Unless it was price that was too good to be true when you bought it, you probably will not get your money out of it when you sell it as an Omega Man conterfiet.
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Counterfeit coins should be destroyed. Sellers or others attempting to exchange them should be prosecuted under the counterfeiting statutes. No exceptions.
I think you are confusing @jwitten post with the OP... @jwitten just showed one in a holder effectively answering the question of ICG encapsulating them.
Collector, occasional seller
@RogerB said: "Counterfeit coins should be destroyed. Sellers or others attempting to exchange them should be prosecuted under the counterfeiting statutes. No exceptions."
I appreciate your input and strongly disagree! As you know, counterfeits have been around since the beginning of coinage. Fortunately for numismatists and numismatics (the study of coins, medals, etc.), your opinion is in the minority and counterfeits are saved in museum and private collections for study. That's because when used properly for education and numismatic history their benefit overrides your wishes.
The only decnet thing to do with them is to have them illustrated so that they can be used for educational purposes. I strongly disagree with those collectors who want to trade stuff like this Omaga thing because, "it's a part of our hobby's heritage."
Electrotypes are counterfeits. Should they be destroyed?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I think the safest thing would be to mark it as a copy, I know that probably isn't a popular opinion on these but I think if done in the obverse field somewhere would be best. It would "legalize" it and not hinder study of the piece.
Collector, occasional seller
I really like the ICG holders, and how they mark them as counterfeits. This is a great service, and one I think should be used in this instance if it cannot be returned to the seller.
I agree except for one thing. When a student is handed a coin and asked if it is genuine, he learns much less when he does not need to think! You can tell someone what to look for and where to look but that is a crutch and will make a very poor authenticator in the future. You see, counterfeits improve over time. A student needs to be trained to think out of the "box."
Yeah. I couldn't possibly get it out of that holder.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Cool piece & Good to see you posting bro...hopefully your 20’s are treating you well...Good Luck with the Bonanno Gold
Just depends on how ETHICALLY strong you are.
Lol. The point is that slabbing it as counterfeit doesn't prevent unethical user of the counterfeit. The only useful service the TPGS could provide is to stamp it right into the coin.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
What's to prevent an unethical user of a cleaned genuine coin or an AU-58 slider from cracking it out of a slab and then selling it as a problem free MS-64 coin? Far more money is lost by collectors buying over graded and problem coins than from collectors buying counterfeit coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
That goes without saying. That is how Dan Carr is able to sell his stuff. He has no control over what people do with it after it is out of his possession. Same with a gun, a car, etc.
@jmlanzaf said: "Yeah. I couldn't possibly get it out of that holder."
This is one of your joke posts right? Do you own a vice or a hammer?
@jmlanzaf said: "Lol. The point is that slabbing it as counterfeit doesn't prevent unethical user of the counterfeit. The only useful service the TPGS could provide is to stamp it right into the coin."
AFAIK, TPGS's don't confiscate or alter a customer's coin unless they have been asked to conserve them. BTW, anyone is able to remove any coin from a slab whether it is in a "detailed" holder (cleaned, altered surface, etc.) or not. I regularly tell potential customers NOT to submit a coin as it will not be "straight graded." I tell them to sell it! if a dealer cannot see the coin has problems....perhaps they should become more knowledgeable.
I agree with all of that, but the original post suggested that the TPGS was doing some kind of collector service by putting it in a clearly marked slab as counterfeit. That is not a useful service. The owner knows it's an omega. Anyone who wants to sell it can simply crack it out.
I must admit, I find the slab interesting. But it is not at all useful with respect to the counterfeit status of the coin
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Look at it this way. A long time ago, collectors were "fleeced" when they sent a genuine coin that was cleaned to a TPGS and the service kept their money and returned the coin. Thankfully, things are different today and the TPGS's are doing "some kind of service" by putting almost anything in a slab.
The owner of this coin knew what it was. The owners of other counterfeits seen in these holders did not! BTW, one famous authentication expert had several genuine coins in his group of counterfeits to be put into our yellow label slab. he was delighted to have his coins be genuine rather than fakes!
The slab does not make the coin counterfeit. It provides something for a collector paying a $10 fee to have their coin graded and authenticated. As I predicted before, I expect other TPGS's to eventually slab fakes for educational purposes.