Is this a cast counterfeit Morgan dollar?
Insider2
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You a regular member of CU and a new member posts this image of his dollar and asks if it is a cast counterfeit. You know that smooth, rounded lumps and smooth round depressions are often characteristics of casting that result from bubbles in the mold or on the piece being copied.
What do you tell him about his coin if this is the only image? Answer tomorrow evening with additional image of the fake.
Is this a cast counterfeit Morgan dollar?
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I need to see more of the coin.
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PS And do more diagnostics
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Hard to tell by Braille...
Yikes! An image will help.
I was going to ask about an image but thought we were going from your written info only
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I'll stick with my original thought
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the picture shown looks good to me, dimples from rusted dies. If you gave us year and MM, we could probably find a VAM.
I'll go out on a limb. Genuine. Defects are from the die.
(Don't anyone quote my post so I can change it later based on the final update
).
Could be rust... I’d want to see full images of the coin before rendering an opinion.
Poke it with a stick! I'm guessing those are occluded gas bubbles that will give when poked. Whether it's a genuine coin or not I can't be certain from the small picture, although it looks real so far. It would not be a cast counterfeit, because those don't have these kinds of bubbles.
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Looks genuine, with planchet bubbles.
From what I can see I’d have to say genuine. Generally, but not always, with cast coins you’ll also see clumps of metal stuck in between the denticles . If I could see more of the coin it would help. I don’t see any porosity on the surfaces either so that’s another clue it’s genuine. I must edit to say the tiny bubble looking things on the surfaces look to be the result of a rusted die rather than anything else. I’m drawing this conclusion from what I can't see rather than what I can, from this small section of this coin. So if I’m not right I’ll call fowl
i think it shows some planchet flaw; the denticles looks genuine
Rusted die.
I don't see a fake there.
bob
I would not answer and move to the next thread.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Looks like at least a struck counterfeit.
I’m going to go out on a limb here.
It’s a 1883-o branch mint proof 😆
I would want to see more of the coin, those bumps could easily be impurities in the metal and bumps could be rust pitting from the dies.
I went with coin is definitely genuine. As with any coin, one should really see the whole coin first, but I went with my gut.
The way the anomalies are shaped and the direction they are heading, I'm in the occluded gas bubbles trapped in the rolled out p[anchet camp.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Forget the bubbles (for now), why is the S shape so uneven? The "O" as well.
I'm going with fake with a double trick question. I'm guessing the rest of the coin looks worse than the O and S which is why you're hiding it.
Do I win a prize?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Real to me. The bubbles appear to be from rusty dies and surface smooth to allow the scratches to appear complete unlike cast counterfeits I have encountered, which are few. I agree the S looks shaky but perhaps from pmd.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
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I'd say counterfeit, based on that
one photo.
The coin looks genuine....the bumps look like die imperfections (i.e. rust)....Cheers, RickO
My guess is planchet flaw. Bubbles in the alloy.
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I like these challenges!
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Messy is a silver dollar expert. He is correct. The coin is 100% genuine. It is also not original due to improper cleaning. Bubbles as this can occur on buried coins but usually indicate the coin has been heated. As I posted, smooth round lumps on a coin are always suspicious.
One way to check is to take a small area of the "lump" and carefully see if it will "push out." Be very careful doing this test as you don't want to leave a big dent in the lump or scratch the surface. When the "bubble" does not push out it is either deeper into the coin (indicating very high heat) or the coin may be counterfeit.
AFTER:
PS Concerning the shape of the "S"...If you have not studied the surface of coins at high power for a long time, everything you see will probably look unusual, different, damaged, strange, etc.
Man that was exciting! I like whodunits. I think my Clue game is in the attic. Peace Roy
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@Insider2 said:
One way to check is to take a small area of the "lump" and carefully see if it will "push out."
Doesn't this pose a problem for the graders? I would think they would like to do as you did and "push out" the "lumps" to verify the effect caused by heating, but surely corporate internal checks and balances won't allow it for fear of damaging a submitter's coin.
As you've set it up, before you push out the lumps, it could be either improperly cleaned at high heat, improperly cleaned at very high heat or counterfeit. If this were the only indicator, what would a grader do?
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
Tommy
While virtually anything done to a coin at 60X will be undetectable, with experience you don't need to touch a customer's coin (except by its edge).
@Insider, I was going to say either occluded gas bubbles in the planchet or you were tricking us and it's bubbles from a gold plating. However, heat bubbles didn't cross my mind as I thought you only see them on clad coins from heat exposure due to the heat separating the layers... Can an alloyed coin bubble up from heat expose like clad? And if so, what's the metallurgical science behind it? Maybe because the 10% copper has a lower melt point than silver? Now you have my curiosity piqued
Again @Insider2 Thank you for a lesson learnt
I was told by personnel at the mint that gases can get trapped in the alloys in spite of everything done to produce a perfect planchet. Oxygen is the main culprit as it is a large atom. Under heat and pressure, a coin can bubble. I've done this myself by taking a large propane torch to a silver coin.
That is all I know. Don't do this to a clad coin as it is easier to "bubble" one of those. Somewhere I have a Roosevelt dime with a huge raised surface on the obverse due to heat. I'll see if my little butane torch can bubble a Chinese fake.
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This is an image of a large heat generated bubble on a heavily polished quarter.
Interesting!
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